Saturday, May 19, 2012

Sandeen, trans "sexualization", trans "medicalization", and deconstructing transsexualism

Autumn Sandeen in a post in the San Diego LGBT Weekly is again trying to deconstruct transsexualism and make the unknowing believe it is terminology that has seen its time and should be put into the world of pejoratives like other derogatory words. She even brought Christine Jorgensen from the grave in an attempt to justify the concept that transsexual should be replaced with transgender.

There has long been some that are offended by the "sex" part of transsexual which is a little baffling when one considers we change sex and not gender and "transsex" describes that very process of crossing to another sex or changing sex. It is truly what being transsexual has always been about but not any longer it seems, well certainly to most in the transgender umbrella for sure.

I actually met Jorgensen in the Spring of 1960 in Harry's office. Something horrid had happened to me and Harry arranged the meeting which is ironic because I had no idea who she was. We wrote back and forth for a few years but after Kevin died and my adventure in Aversion Therapy in the summer of 1963 I stopped communicating with everyone from my family, to Harry, to Jorgensen, with the exception of my older brother Ray. In a little tiny irony she was the first person I ever read or heard use the term "tranny" but that was the early 60's.

The real irony of this attempt to make transsexual a sexualization of "trans" people is the simple truth the only ones being sexualized are those of us that had SRS because we were and are the only women involved. They are trying to link the sexualization of women with the sexualization of transsexuals by some. The other irony here is the person writing this article has a penis, sans balls, and they have as much chance of being a female sex object as a cement wall. The other way they attempt to denigrate transsexuals is by claiming since she-males advertise themselves as transsexuals the word is bad. I think a little explanation is needed for the men in dresses crowd.

A tranny chaser is a man that likes his women to have tits plus a dick and balls.  They will chase pre-op transsexuals and they will chase drag queens and they might even chase transvestites but what they are after is a she-male or a combination of both sexes but with the male sex characteristics basically intact. A tranny chaser will not chase women nor those who have had SRS.  They would chase Monica Roberts because she has an intact male anatomy.  They might even chase Sandeen but they would have to lower their standards in that case.

Most She-Males are about as transsexual as a Drag Queen but some are because being a She-Male has earning potential for SRS as does the Drag world. She-males advertise themselves as transsexual so the Tranny Chasers will know who and what they are because that is their clientele. Claiming that because She-Males use transsexual is bad for those that are transsexual is like claiming women should find another term for themselves because transvestite hookers are women.

Another reason for the "sex" issue in transsexual is because sex is in the name. The ones whining about this are heterosexual men who often claim that SRS is not about the sex as in fucking which does beg one question. Why would you want a vagina if you were not going to use it. The reason is simple for those that feel that way.  Getting rid of the dick and balls makes them feel "less male" but certainly "not more female" because most women I know want good sex as bad as any man does and you can count me in that category.

Many of the ones in that camp claim to be asexual which is a misinterpretation of what Benjamin said because Harry was talking about transsexuals pre SRS and many are asexual rather than have any sex at all before SRS. Most of the women I have known like me thoroughly enjoy sex but there are a few that do not like there are some natal women that do not but one must wonder if they met the right partner, male or female, how long that would last. Besides they are men and the thought of being penetrated is not something men accept easily even with a vagina in place. This also goes for our lesbian sisters.

In the article Sandeen claims the word "trans" people united behind was "transgender in the 90's.  Actually this is untrue because mostly activists like Wilchins and her ilk moved that way but not those born transsexual once they realized the true makeup of the new umbrella. It is why people are opposed to transgender. The other issue we had and have is when we are "cured" with SRS most of us want to leave behind the public side of being transsexual because we are women.

I do love the "diversity" model concept used by Sandeen and the belief that the "visibly" trans are the ones that face all the discrimination and all the rights gained are for those born transsexual. Just what are those rights? They are mostly rights that allow us to "just" be women.

When was 14 years old I was raped by my brutish neighbor.  Thankfully I have not one single memory of the event except for the first few minutes since he fractured my skull to keep me quiet. All he kept muttering to me as he ripped my clothes off and hit me was, "I'll show you what it means to be a woman",  while nearly killing me. Every time Sandeen opens her mouth or puts pen to paper or keyboard to word processor or keyboard to internet post I feel like Sandeen is telling me and everyone before and to come that "He will tell us what it means to be a woman" and we must listen or I must listen. What the fuck does Sandeen or Monica Roberts or any of these penis packing activist assholes understand about being a woman? They are men and it shows through in every word.

Sandeen wants to reject medicalization because we recognize it as our cure and they look at it as forced sterilization or castration. We want transsexualism to be a medical condition because most of us that have finished that path recognize the fact we are cured and simply women.  We are not some hyphenated form of woman with "trans" or "transgender" in front. We look at that as a denigration of our womanhood. Sandeen and her ilk look at it as a badge of honor because they want to be special and recognized as special because they are "trans" whatever.

The goal of these transgender assholes is the deconstruction or destruction or removal of transsexual from usage because it clearly defines a specific group of people. It defines those that want a sex change. The problem is the actual word or meaning they want to redefine and deconstruct is female and woman. They want female and woman to include them in their penis packing panties with their 5o'clock shadows and other male accoutrements.  

They demand to be accepted as women rather than earning that privilege by becoming a woman and living a life that earns one womanhood. They want to legislate themselves female and they are winning some battles but some people are standing up to them.

Look at the hubris these penis packing men have. They actually are demanding that lesbians accept them as women, lesbians, sex partners, and feminists because they say they are despite packing a penis in the panties. Sounds a little like another version of "I'll tell you what it means to be a woman" only this time it is "I'll tell you what it means to be a lesbian feminist" and you will like!! That is like a pre-op transsexual telling a heterosexual man that "you will accept me as a woman and fuck me up the ass but pretend it is a vagina and like it"!! Not likely.

The irony is these penis packing lesbian feminists are outraged that lesbian feminists will not accept them as women.  They do not want to have to work as women in the work place and actually be women in the real world they are "demanding" to be accepted because they say so. How fucking manly of them. I am a heterosexual woman but I have to imagine the creeps it brings to a lesbian at the thought of a lesbian with a functional penis.

The real goal along with removing transsexual from the vernacular is to deconstruct what female and women means. This is clearly a case of men trying to tell women what it means to be what is our essence of existence and our physical presentation.  I guess it is now okay to have a man bulge in a bikini and transphobic to point it out.

It is transphobic to point out that transvestites are not women and should not be treated nor allowed access as such. It is transphobic to criticize anything they say because after all "man knows best". It is even transphobic to point out that someone is an obvious man in a dress that turns out to be a registered sex offender.

Is it bad to say that having the GLBT or GLAAD or any of its rags representing us is akin to appointing a third generation inbred redneck with an IQ of 35 to head Mensa. We have not one thing in common with them.

It is important that transsexualism be termed a medical condition but if that happens the the transvestites are recognized for what they are which is men with a social problem or fetishists. I actually have nothing against them and wish them no harm as long as they do it on their own time and at accepted places where they gather but it will be a very snowy day in hell when I accept them as women because they put on a dress, heels, and a wig and stuff the dick and balls in panties and parade around town. They are men because they will go back to being men.

I have to wonder why NOW has not been heard on the redefinition of female. Are they just too dumb to realize what is happening or do they favor penis in the panties women?

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

I first encountered the term "Transgender" at a speech presented by Charles Prince. Quite apart from the fact that his very appearance filled me with disgust what he had to say was an outrage quite frankly. I was a couple of months pre-op at the time. I was so disgusted by what he was saying I left the room. I think I left the room with the words "Bullshit total bullshit". So for Mr Sandeen to declare that "we all got behind transgender in the 90's" is in itself "Bullshit" because I was not the only one to leave that speech. Funnily enough we were all either transsexuals or wives of the mesmerized transvestites who were worshiping their hero.

Excellent Essay Sis.

CS

Sarah said...

From the bottom of my heart thanks for writing this and defending transsexuals. I'm not surprised that the transgender crowd has gone loony in post after post trying to deny transsexualism exists. They must be alarmed at the growing unity between transsexual who are fiercely opposed to transgender umbrella bull shit. They have no idea how far women will go to defend their families, which is what you, my dear Elizabeth, are doing. I love you, dont ever stop writing, you give me hope, Sarah

Anonymous said...

Liz, like you, I've srs. But unlike you, it hasn't caused me to imagine that I am somehow superior to those who haven't or can't. While I don't agree with the one size fits all TG classification concept I see no reason to demonize those who do.

Elizabeth said...

@Anonymous

You are missing the entire point whomever you are but then too many do miss the point. Haven't and can't means decided not to or will not work for it. The numbers who cannot for medical reasons are incredibly small but regardless if you have a penis you are NOT a woman nor are you female.

It is all a giant smokescreen to cover up the fact they are just little boys playing girl and want women to buy into the fantasy and will force us to if we do not.

They demonize themselves when they post what Sandeen posts. Open your eyes or better yet bury your head deeper in the sand.

Anonymous said...

That's always the argument it comes down to, and I don't know what I'm supposed to think. So, because I'm pre-op, I'm not a woman? I suppose it does make sense, because everyday I look down and I have to see... that, I certainly don't feel like a woman, yet I had to prove that I'm already a woman without a vagina in order to be recommended for the surgery.

But the thing I just don't like is the whole "all pre-ops are men until they're post-op" thing so many say. Hopefully, by year's end, I won't have to worry about which side of the fence I sit on, but until then, I guess I'm just some man playing at dress up. *sigh* :(

Elizabeth said...

@Anonymous

Oh please hand the poor mes to your TG friends. If you truly are transsexual and truly are pre-op and planning SRS then you would understand the point.

The reason you need SRS you dumbshit is so you can be a woman. It is the reason SRS is wanted so desperately by 99.99% of those that are transsexual.

Now go back to your TG pals.

Reality Check said...

This current anonymous is so transparent. Their argument starts with, "Liz, like you, I've srs."

Then as the argument is lost, it devolves to, " Hopefully, by year's end, I won't have to worry about which side of the fence I sit on, but until then, I guess I'm just some man playing at dress up. *sigh* :(".

Poor little TG victim with their typical 'woe is me' lament.

Setting aside this tired old tg victim ploy, the facts are simple. Trans-SEX-uals change their SEX...you know, that stuff between their legs and, how they 'do it'.

Trans-genders change their gender presentation. How simple is that?
I find it extreme disingenuous how regularly these outright LIES, that sex=gender, and men and women are really just some indefinable "spectrum" are trotted out and forced, by virtue of intimidation and shouts of 'bigot/hater/transphobe' etc, down our throats..."whether we like it or not".

Face it. These guys are trying to deconstruct those simple concepts upon which human existance, and the entire 'spectrum' of mamillian life on this planet, has always existed.

Miz Know-It-All said...

It simply amazes me how folks can be so deluded that they will go on and on and on and on about transsexual or transgender and wondering if they are or might become one or the other when there is one very simple test to see if one is transsexual or not... (you're on your own with transgender!)

Ask! That is right! Ask them or ask yourself! "Are you a transsexual?"

If you have to think about it for even a half a second, you're not! Plain as day! End of story! What you are then? Honestly? I haven't a clue and really, that is going to be between you and your maker to figure out, but what I can say is, with all assurity, you are not and never will be transsexual

None of us who are/were wanted this! NONE of us! Got it? NONE! We would have sold (or did sell) our souls to not be one and when we ran out of ways to wish it away for even a second longer... we will do (did do) anything and I do mean ANYTHING that is required by God and country to fix it! If that does not describe you to a tee, then, let it go! Stop trying to pretend/wish/attempt to be something that you are not! Instead give thank to the heavens you weren't and that you have other options in your life!

MKIA

Deena said...

The only reasonable place discussions about sex and gender should be held is the neutral ground of a nudist camp.

Foxfire said...

As long as the author of that article and his disgusting ilk are feeding this poison to the media, the media will keep sucking it up like a baby on a malignant breast. That is, until it becomes obvious to the rest of the world what a joke these clowns really are.

Many of the comments at the end of the linked article were heartening, because the overwhelming majority are negatively against this nonsensical psychotic diatribe by Sandeen. I would like to think that means we are seeing the death throes of this ridiculous movement and their desperate attempts at erasing the narrative of those of us who were born with but since surgically cured of the transsexual medical condition. Of course they only want to do this in order to try and legitimize the she males, chicks with dicks, transvestites, crossdressers, drag queens, pregnant men, and all the rest of the bizarre menagerie. In fact, I think Umbrella Inc. so desperately tries to assimilate us precisely because we who overcame our former condition to go on and lead normal lives so glaringly demonstrate their total irrelevance to the binary world we live in.

It is encouraging to see that these other penis packing wack jobs are increasingly being seen for the absurd pretender wannabe charlatans they are, and that can only be a good thing. Every time they raise their disgusting little (dick)heads, we must expose their nonsense for what it is. Thanks to Liz and the others who are doing just that.

Foxfire

Robyn said...

FemaleI think that all sides have valid points but that simply reflects that currently there is no satisfactory word or words to describe what we all eperience in our own way. Just like there are no two people who look exactly alike (except identical twins of course) I think WE need to come up with a new "medical" term, not one borrowed from the porn industry or others. I would propose that we take the essence of what we are -FEMALE with a androgen-deformed body and the fact that we corred the physical problems and to what extent should not be a part of it. Thus, words like andromorphic female would seem to be accurate and "medical" enough for even those doctors who presume to tell us who we are.

Anonymous said...

Wow, I had no idea that people could be so hateful. But I guess I got the answer to my question: I'm pre-op and scheduled my surgery, but I'm not a "real" transsexual until I get it. Thanks, that's good to know.

I'll be sure to bring this up to my closest girlfriends, all of whom are post-op transsexuals. I'm sure they'll just love this conversation when I bring it up to them.

Just to set things straight, so that there is no fucking confusion as to who and what I am, I am not some fucking man playing at dress up. I changed my name. I'm on hormones. I see a therapist. I hate my genitals so much that I've never had sex.

I guess the point is that if I'm a "REAL" transsexual, then I should point and laugh and misgender all those deluded "transgender" folk. And this is why this community will never gain the respect of other more privileged communities. Because we're always dumping on each other. It works both ways. How are we as a community supposed to gain other people's respect when we won't even respect each other?

Anonymous said...

wow this is the most toxic thing I have ever read. I want to wash my brain out with rocksalt.

I knew transphobia existed within our community but didnt know it was this bad.

very sad

the author of this article really needs to get a grip, the separatist overtones in all of this smells of transsexual elitism. I transitioned 18 years ago and belong to a very large and diverse community that supports everyone and we dont disrespect and throw our own under the bus.

this is flat out transphobia inverted.

Elizabeth said...

@Anonymous

At least have the sense to put a set of initials to your anonymous post.

Did you read anywhere in here where you should point and laugh at another transsexual. Those that identify as transgender do not have gender issues they have a social condition and a fetish called transvestism because they are transvestites.

No you actually miss the entire point asshole. You are transsexual if you are pre-op and no longer transsexual after SRS but simply a woman. Since every transsexual I know understands that simple point it is quite obvious you are just an asshole TG red herring.

The community you talk of is the TG community which is attempting to remove the term transsexual from the English language in an attempt to obfuscate what transgender represents which is NOT transsexuals.

Now both of you or one of you, whichever it is, back to TG kindergarten and re-read the mantra and come back when the brain cells are actually operating and you can put forth a cogent argument other than because I disagree with you I am transphobic.

Elizabeth said...

@Last Anonymous

I am not transsexual so I cannot be elite but since you transitioned 18 years ago what have you done with your live outside the "trans" community? Transitioned 18 years ago? What does that imply?

I should ignore you because you obviously have reading comprehension issues that result from a brain befuddled by TG nonsense. Diverse community? As in transvestite, cross-dresser etc..

They may be your own but they are not nor have never been part of my life.

By the way I guess it is okay to throw us under the bus but it is transphobic to throw or disagree with them. Get a life but then you already have a TG life forever. How pathetic that makes you.

Anonymous said...

That Tee-Gee Koolaid is nasty stuff.
Why is it the Tee-Gees can't leave the TS and women of operative history alone.

We don't want any part of your community, if you are so strong you don't need us and the term transsexual to legitimize yourselves.

We don't want any part of you, your silly slang, and your movement .

Leave us the FUCK alone.


NYF

Dana Lane Taylor said...

"Deena said...
The only reasonable place discussions about sex and gender should be held is the neutral ground of a nudist camp."

Deena, that was one of the most awesome comments, I have ever seen. LOL

Anonymous said...

Sorry to be so long here, Elizabeth.

To all of those posting here that cannot seem to grasp the concept of what Elizabeth is suggesting. Get yourself undressed, stand in front of a full mirror and take a look. Do you have a penis with or without testicles? Or, do you have a vagina? The former represents male=man, the latter female=woman.

It's not really much more difficult than that.

Addressing the male to female concerns:

If you are seeing a penis and you're planning to have SRS, and you know that once completed you will live as and be a woman, then you are a transsexual! But, to date your are not yet a woman.

If you are seeing a penis and you do not plan to have SRS, and you plan to live as a female now and then, yet not be a woman, then you are transgender. You are not a WOMAN and never will be!

If, when you look into that mirror and see a vagina post SRS, and you are living life as a woman, love as a woman, then you are no longer transsexual and you are a woman.

If, when you look into that mirror and see a vagina post SRS, and you are advocating for access to women's private areas for those still with a penis and testicles, you are then not a woman, you DID NOT have transsexualism and you ARE transgender! You will NEVER be a woman!

To be more clear:

Transgender represents a social belief and political cause.

Transsexualism, on the other hand, represents a clear medical need to receive a cure in order to live life in the SEX we know we are and continue that life in a normative fashion.


DJ

Anonymous said...

you are all very damaged and sick people. I would say there is a little more going on here then transsexuality. You people are seriously demented. It shows in your words and writing. You all need group therapy and quick.

I feel sorry for yall. Now way i going to give me identity away to you psychotic lot. Are you kidding. Who knows what you crazies get up to when you walk away from the computer.

Good thing separatism is nearly dead.

Hate and fear, these are your only weapons?

get back under your rock, trans separatists are a noise minority that will fizzle out.

Been around for a long time and seen many sub communities rise and fall.

enjoy your apartheid. Try and calm down a little though its bad for your health and soul to embrace hate so much.

good luck with your fear and hate paradigm. Just wanted to give you the heads up and let you know you will fail. I dont like to see my brothers and sisters suffering.

One blinding point though, where are trans men in all this? Do they even exist to you or is it only trans woman of and if trans men cant have full surgery then does that make them different from you?


So you are actually saying that we real transsexuals and when we get our surgery we are no longer transsexuals but cis woman??? Do you have any idea how CRAZY that sounds lol.

This is like mass psychosis. I think yall need a visit from the truth fairy.

<3 from a sister

Elizabeth said...

@Anonymous or Cindi or is Indy X or is it "it"

How is the weather in Australia. First you need to learn the correct usage of spell-check and please at least attempt something that is grammatically readable.

Now because I oppose someone trying to destroy transsexualism and the need for transsexualism to be treated as a medical decision I am transphobic and a hate monger. Rather an odd position for a man in a dress with a penis like yourself.

I did not and have never said we are cis women that would be your pal Zoe Brain and his delusion. I said we are just girls and women that have a little history and we are most certainly not transsexual after SRS.

Second you are not my sister because you have a dick and your pal Zoe needs the visit from the truth fairy and not me. Do you even have a clue what apartheid is?

I do not deal with men because they face challenges that are different from us but if they have a hysterectomy then that is fine by me but all of them that are truly born transsexual want as mush as they can get.

Now back under the transgender rock for you and a little reading comprehension and some cogent thought should be the first order of the day for you but that means giving up the beer and the wife's panties.

Elizabeth said...

Oh yes it is obvious you did not read the post Assnonymous. It is actually a reasonable response to a very hateful and deliberately anti transsexual rant by a pathetic loon.

Anonymous said...

@anonymouse. I doubt you are any "sister" of mine.

It really is quite elementary, DJ laid it out very well I thought. Personally, I don't hate anyone, I don't have that within my nature. I do pity some peaople and some groups of people. Most often I at least try to help and support. When I oppose and speak out against something it is because I disagree with either what they are saying or what they are doing. That is called "freedom" The transgender idealism and ideologues do not allow that freedom it is called oppression and that is a form of hate. You seem to advocate these transgender policies even though you express it couched it mild language; that is called passive aggressive. In other words you are fooling no-one least of all me or Elizabeth for that matter.

You are now attempting to divert attention away from the focus of the essay which was on an attempt by a man i e Autumn Sandeen to deny transsexuals their identity a policy I can only presume you support. Opposing something with which you disagree is not hate it is freedom and we will have that freedom whether transgender activists like it or not.

CS

Anonymous said...

@DJ,

I agree with what your saying, yet I'm curious about a few finer points. If you have a doctor that treats people like us and treats transgender patients for HRT should that doctor use female pronouns when referring to TGs?

Replace that doctor with the various advocates titles: A lawyer, an accountant, a dentist, a nurse, a personal trainer, a physical therapist, a dietitian or other well being advocate are you suggesting the term transgender replace a proper gender pronoun?

BlackSwan

Foxfire said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

@ass-nony-mouse

You and your TG pals, "are all very damaged and sick people. I would say there is a little more going on here....You all need group therapy and quick"!

"I feel sorry for yall. Now way i going to give me identity away to you psychotic lot. Are you kidding. Who knows what you crazies get up to when you walk away from the computer."

"This is like mass psychosis. I think yall need a visit from the truth fairy. "

Indeed Mr. Tranny, indeed.

Choose Identity, (C.I.)

Anonymous said...

Tranny Equality 101

Cocks in Frocks = "Woman"

Men in Dresses = "Woman"

If you cannot accept that, then, according to 'tranny truth' doctrine, it follows that a woman with reconstituted genitalia is NOT a woman.

In other words unless you accept that TG's can be 'chicks with dicks', entitled to all those perogatives available to women only, then it follows that the TG will never accept that we who do not drag around a cock and balls and engage in heteronormal sex, cannot be women either.

How egalitarian of them. How paternally misogynistically arrogant of them and typically male of them, to TELL us women just who we are.

C.I.

Elizabeth said...

@Blackswan

I wonder why you would ask such a question? That is up to the doctor in question. What would you do?

We all know you are cozy with the TG crowd so I can guess where you are coming from.

If someone is transgender and not transsexual and they are getting hormones then those doctors are setting themselves up for malpractice when the TG pervert begins to realize the willy ain't working as well as before.

Anonymous said...

@Black Swan. That question is a "Red Herring" Has nothing to do with either the essay or how medical professionals conduct interviews in the privacy of their consulting rooms or medical or psychological treatments. What you are attempting do do with this question of yours is to reduce a scenario to a ridiculous state and hence claim the anti argument proven. It is a method described as "reductio absurdum" and in most intellectual circles is rejected. Have another go if you like however the logic of the principles laid out by DJ will almost certainly stand since they are based on common sense and logic and founded on fact and not supposition or fantasy.

Foxfire said...

Liz is right- until someone has surgery they are transsexual, as in they are still in the process of changing or transitioning physical sex. It has nothing to do with gender or psychological identity or being "elitist"; it is simply a physical fact. Before my surgery I was transsexual; it was damned difficult but I dealt with and overcame it. Hell or wild horses could not have kept me from obtaining my cure or die trying. I am a woman, no other qualifiers or excuses for my now anatomically correct genitals needed, which was the point of that whole transition exercise to begin with.

Yes it sucks being transsexual, it really, truly does. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But that is exactly why we fix it- so we won't have to be transsexual anymore. The physical reality is that unless/until you have a vagina, it is impossible to comprehend the experience, which is a woman's experience. It is this experience that Sandeen and all the rest of the penis endowed will never possibly hope to understand, and why they will never have a clue what it's really like to be a woman for all their silly prattling.

My community is the community of women, and our issues are all women's issues. We are not interested in men's transvestite issues. It is with my community of sisters I stand in solidarity against the drag fetishists or any other man who tries to force himself into the female narrative with the objective of perverting it into something that reeks of testosterone. These permanently trans-whatevers do not now nor will they ever understand what it means to be a woman, because they are either content to keep their man bits which by definition makes them men, or else they claim to have finished transition but still actively identify as trans-something, which by definition makes them something other than women. Either way, they just don't get it.

Foxfire

Anonymous said...

"If, when you look into that mirror and see a vagina post SRS, and you are advocating for access to women's private areas for those still with a penis and testicles, you are then not a woman, you DID NOT have transsexualism"

I respectfully disagree with this, however, I would agree with it in full given a slight modification. However, I like what you post- I agree with you 100% on everything else you put.

Before you accuse me of any defending of the TV fetishes, I am anything but one to defend the TV crowd from anything like this, because I do not think men deserve to go into women's bathrooms, plain and simple. To add to that, neither should I until my SRS is done, honestly. As I've mentioned previously, many of my generation, even the Type VI of today are incorrectly being
told they are transgender, and being openly an activist is the only way to be. Of course, this is encouraged by idiotic bigheads such as Mr. Sandeen, and Mr. Roberts, but the vast majority of Type VIs my age do not know how full of hot air Sandeen and his elk are. They do not know they are fully cured, only having a transsexual medical history, nothing more after SRS.

You seem like an intelligent woman, DJ, so I would respectfully modify the last point of your statement to this:

"If, when you look into that mirror and see a vagina post SRS, know that you are cured, you only have a transsexual medical history, and no more, and you are advocating for access to women's private areas for those still with a penis and testicles, you are then not a woman, you DID NOT have transsexualism."

The amount of ignorance and laziness by doctors given to my age group (Type VI teens) is astounding.

Now, before I address the post, thank you so much for your writing Elizabeth; it truly keeps me going knowing that I can rid myself of this terrible condition, someday, as you got rid of it yourself. I hope you don't mind that I look up to you as a role model.

Sandeen trying to say that Jorgensen promoted the use of transgender is utter bullshit of the finest order. Then again, what else could I ever expect from Sandeen? Clearly he and his friends feel his needs, in what can only be described as a male action, to put his needs in front of every women (unlike himself) in existence. This is an interesting comparison to the TV movement as a whole- it's all about men putting themselves before women again, which is disgusting.

I am rather shocked that nobody has commented about why Sandeen and the others wants to call out women of transsexual history- he is afraid that the we (those who call out his nonsense) are in fact correct. Like a man once again, he gets defensive when he is questioned. I am almost equally surprised at how many of you are feeding Mr. Sandeen's fetish; why are ANY of you calling him Autumn?

However, Sandeen, with all his faults is entirely right about one thing, I personally think, which is surprising. He says transgender is forever. I agree! Your fetish and transgender life will last forever. On the contrary, a transsexual medical condition lasts until you get SRS! End of story!

Disclaimer: I haven't had SRS yet, but in no way will I call myself female except only how I self identify- and to be more specific, female transsexual (type VI) given, that skin tag between my legs, and my desire to remove it. When I get my SRS, I will be a woman, nothing less. On a side note, how is that unclear, Anonymous? It is NOT, really. I get the concept, you do not. I question if you are TS if you can not understand that basic simplicity.

All of you, keep up your amazing work calling all of this nonsense out.

~Jessica

Anonymous said...

@Jessica; up to DJ what she does with her final paragraph but from where I stand she got it right first time. It requires no modifications in my view. If you are not outraged at the idea of Mr Witherspoon and his ilk spying on you, perving on you and your young daughters in the ladies room, you simply don't see the world from a female perspective. That is the bottom line.

Good luck with your plans for SRS, I hope you do not have to wait too long.

Anna said...

The nuances of this debate are getting too complicated for me to follow, but this point made raised a question in my mind;

>>> I do not think men deserve to go into women's bathrooms, plain and simple. To add to that, neither should I until my SRS is done, honestly. <<<

The Caveats
I don't have a position on the entire washroom thing. I'm not even neutral, I just haven't thought about it and never will, there are other pressing concerns on my mind such as getting the money for my surgery ASAP, men (someday...) , work, building things, the life gig, and the usual suspects.

I'm told that I don't look like a man in a dress (thank feynman. It was and is my worst nightmare) and in my world I can't imagine not using the Ladies' Room. Male bathroom are just yuck. Especially if you need to sit down and do the proverbial it. (plus I'll cause a commotion if I ever walked into one)

No, there wasn't a day where I woke up determined to go to some public place with the intent of using the right washroom. It just happened, as did the rest of the "transition" thing. Once I got out of my parents' little world, one thing led to another and before I knew it I was living as a girl. There wasn't a conscious decision or choice involved anywhere in the process. I need to be a girl and all of it is just happening automatically with a little help from my friends. It is just "right" in so many ways.

The Question
As I still have that 'M' on my passport and the surgery is several pounds off, is it wrong for me to use the Ladies' Room? What does this make me? I don't even give it much thought, it's just a normal part of life.

Anonymous said...

@Black Swan,

I submit that people in what ever station of life will utilize pronouns that they feel or deem comfortable with bestowing upon another.

For example, a water/waitress will accordingly assign a pronoun to a patron based upon a.) shown respect to waitstaff and other patrons, and/or a desire for a tip, or b.) no desire for a tip and sooner to be rid of them.

As a matter of public discourse, it really comes down to a matter of perception coupled to mutual respect. Failing those, 'Lo que será, será!'

In other words, that person which looks as a woman will be addressed as such. Them that don't, won't!


@ Jessica,

I like your version of my assessment, very much!


DJ

Anonymous said...

@Jessica,

I'm sorry. Giving it more thought, I'll have to stay with my original assessment. And, here's the reasoning for it.

If you are:

"....post SRS, know that you are cured, you only have a transsexual medical history, and no more.....",

you aren't going to be advocating for penis' and testicles entry into women's spaces in any case! I'm pretty sure those who are post SRS and still advocating for such, never had transsexualism in the first place.


DJ

Anonymous said...

http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2012/05/22/my-bittersweet-sexgender-court-ruling-the-san-diego-court-appearance/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

It's a fucking dark day in California
When some transvestite can keep his cock and change his birth certificate to female.

what a fucking sad ass world this has become.


Fuck you Autumn
You are an affront and a sick joke on women everywhere.

Anonymous said...

To bring this debate back to the subject of the essay; dislike by some for the term "transsexual" lays in an embarrassment of the word "sex" Since it has within it's three letters an additional meaning associated with the act of sexual intercourse itself. Ironically for me and I suspect most type VI transsexual women it is the desire for normal sexual intercourse with males that was an intrinsic part of my overwhelming need for surgical correction. Why are people like Sandeen afraid of that? Homophobia? I have no idea. When you add into this this the involvement of the sex industry and the promotion of "she males" we are left with this mess.

It is absolutely about sex, both the act of sexual intercourse and self identification with which sex you are or which side of the sex binary you are instinctively on.

Sex and gender as words are not interchangeable it is this uneducated confusion that is the root cause of these wars. That and the refusal of the transvestite transgender horde of thugs and bullies like Sandeen to acknowledge that transsexuals want no part of his and those like him snide little attempts with obfuscation to confuse everyone and trick them into believing we are all the same. We are not.

Cassandraspeaks

Elizabeth said...

A piece of fucking paper from an asinine state that allows a man with a penis to change his birth certificate does not a woman or a female make.

Sandeen has a penis thus Sandeen is a man. End of case and end of story but it does smell like a good post.

Anonymous said...

If Sandeen thinks this piece of paper will force me to call him anything other than male he can think again. A Piece of paper does not a woman make. Sandeen is a prick with no balls just like his genitals.

CS

Anonymous said...

@Anna said: "As I still have that 'M' on my passport and the surgery is several pounds off, is it wrong for me to use the Ladies' Room? What does this make me? I don't even give it much thought, it's just a normal part of life."

I personally don't think there is an easy answer to that question. People can't see what is in your pants, so if you are not accepted in the ladies room before your surgery, you may not be accepted after surgery either (although the extra confidence may help a bit I think).

I haven't had my surgery either yet, but when I go to the men's room they look at me totally confused, and once a guy even left the room again to check the sign on the door because he thought that he was the one that was in the wrong room. I have also been directed into the ladies room once by a guy when I was hesitating in front of the doors while trying to figure out some very nice paintings on the doors that were used as gender markers. "The one on the left", he said to me, which turned out to be the ladies room.

So I always go to the ladies now, and I have never had any problems in there. I also really believe that I belong there because I am not a man and am on my way to surgery. Going to the men's room simply doesn't feel right to me.

I am still very self-aware though when going to the toilet. I am not afraid, I am actually pretty confident, and it feels normal to go there. But I am always aware of the fact that women in there might start feeling uncomfortable if they would know about me. I don't want that to happen. Luckily, it never did.

I would never demand that I have a right to go there, I believe that I should be very glad that I seem to be accepted in there, but it is definitely not a right that I have. Being accepted in there is something that has to come naturally. You can't force people to accept you by changing the law or by dragging along a piece of paper that has an 'F' on it, and that is something that transgender activists don't seem to understand.

/*M*/

Anna said...

/*M*/

Part 1

>>> I personally don't think there is an easy answer to that question. People can't see what is in your pants, so if you are not accepted in the ladies room before your surgery, you may not be accepted after surgery either (although the extra confidence may help a bit I think). <<<

When I read your comment along with the others on this blow, what struck me were the qualifiers and genuine attempts to address edge cases. They are all attempts to reach some underlying rational basis which can be used to weigh in on these matters. Even this comment is an attempt to do so, but the real world is a complicated thing, and as far as I know there are no first principles for human society. No set of "laws" from which we can derive all of the endless permutations of humanity. There are also precious few "best" solutions, where everything works out perfectly fine for all parties involved. This is not about the fixed pie fallacy or the dog eat dog world hypothesis. It's about how the law of unintended consequences always comes up with something to surprise us.

I think that we can all agree that the best thing in the world for us would be a simple hardware based diagnostic method. Perhaps a brain scan that observes patterns of activities in specific parts of the brain and teases out if the brain has a male or female architecture upon that basis. Even though the test would not be 100% accurate (no test is) , it would certainly eliminate most of this ruckus by firmly establishing transsexualism as just another medical condition which is diagnosable on a neuroanatomical basis, but right now we don't have that. Instead we are using all sorts of heuristics to figure out who is genuinely female and who isn't. I think that's the question behind every word said about this topic. People seem to be debating about the parameters of that heuristic and some people want to throw away the heuristic. I agree with Elizabeth on how the heuristic should function, but the fact remains at the end of the day what you have is just a heuristic. Even if calibrated with the right parameters Elizabeth suggests, it is still imprecise and edge cases will accumulate over time. This does not mean that a decision to calibrate shouldn't be taken, it just means shit will go wrong even if the right parameters are adopted, so the permeability of the filter becomes a cost v.s. benefit problem that someone needs to weigh in on. Preferably in a rational, impartial manner, but we humans aren't capable of doing that. This is why I think we'll never get such things right. The world is just too damn complicated. We can approach a certain degree of rightness, but we'll never really get there.

...

Anna said...

/*M*/

Part 2

>>> I haven't had my surgery either yet, but when I go to the men's room they look at me totally confused, and once a guy even left the room again to check the sign on the door because he thought that he was the one that was in the wrong room. I have also been directed into the ladies room once by a guy when I was hesitating in front of the doors while trying to figure out some very nice paintings on the doors that were used as gender markers. "The one on the left", he said to me, which turned out to be the ladies room. <<<

Yes. I've freaked out my share of people as well and I made a rule to just start avoiding such places. I never really realized how uncomfortable I made men until I moved out from my parents' place. (I tend to be ignorant about the people around me like that for some strange reason. I guess there's always too much going on in my own world to notice the real world) During the initial few months I had been instructed to act / live as a guy because they thought it would be easier for me to survive as a guy. Well it didn't quite work out that way. Even though I had very short hair and I was trying my best to act as a guy people kept on asking me if I was a girl or a boy. I stayed at a male accommodation for a while and due to my stupidity they freaked out to various degrees over me, and they just couldn't seem to share a room with me. That was interesting. What's even more interesting is that now that I live as a girl I don't have to face any of that crap, life is simultaneously more complicated and less complicated for me now.

>>> So I always go to the ladies now, and I have never had any problems in there. I also really believe that I belong there because I am not a man and am on my way to surgery. Going to the men's room simply doesn't feel right to me. <<<

Yes, yes and yes. :-)

>>> I am still very self-aware though when going to the toilet. I am not afraid, I am actually pretty confident, and it feels normal to go there. But I am always aware of the fact that women in there might start feeling uncomfortable if they would know about me. I don't want that to happen. Luckily, it never did. <<<

I'm self aware to some degree, and sometimes I do get terrified that I might look like a guy, but I'm usually too dazed to care. I'm not exactly a confident person, it's just that when my head is working on something, it is easier for me to abstract such stuff away and not let it affect me.

>>> I would never demand that I have a right to go there, I believe that I should be very glad that I seem to be accepted in there, but it is definitely not a right that I have. Being accepted in there is something that has to come naturally. You can't force people to accept you by changing the law or by dragging along a piece of paper that has an 'F' on it,<<<

That bit does not compute. How the hell can you demand it as a "right?" I usually thought that "rights" and so on were for more serious things such as my inalienable right to not have a Yamam-esque team break down my apartment door, stun me, put a black bag on my head and secretly take me to a cell in some country I can't even pronounce just because they didn't like my nose. The entire bathroom thing doesn't seem to be on the list when it comes to rights and liberties.

>>> and that is something that transgender activists don't seem to understand. <<<

No comments. :-p

flow said...

oh. rest rooms pre-op.

its a scary one (for ts folk, at least. for tg it appears to be a fetish).

i always opted for the disabled toilet if i could - in the UK they were generally gender free. i figured that i was disabled (i had a penis), so i was allowed to use it.

eventually, i realised that i was being read as a woman, and that it caused more disruption to use a male toilet than a female one (where no disabled was available) so i started using the female toilet. with my head down, no eye contact, being a mouse.

maybe it wasn't the most mentally healthy way of doing things? i was more concerned with not making a fuss...

once the anti-androgens had realyl kicked in, i felt more confident, because those bits had given up being so offensive, and i could see them a simply a deformity waiting to be removed. post-op. well. its my right to use the correct toilet.

Anonymous said...

Hmmmmm....Interesting degeneration into potty politics. How did that happen?

Anna said...

Anonymous

It's not my fault. My consciousness is based upon the well documented wikipedia effect.

It was a fascinating and telling thing at the same time it was bizarre. I just couldn't help myself.