Thursday, April 21, 2011

Medical or Mental?


Is this a medical condition or a mental condition? I guess I am one of the people claiming that a lot of the later transitioners and even others have created a dichotomy in whether this is truly medical or mental. I think the issue is not that someone is a late transitioner.  It is the simple fact in this day and age there are too many late transitioners and too many transitioners period that are lesbian.

If one is truly born with a female brain then that problem is there from early on and should be set around puberty until somewhere in the mid to late teens. Many people can fool themselves into doing certain things I will never understand but that does not mean I hate them but I do tend to judge the ones I am forced to deal with individually. The simple truth is you either are born transsexual or you are not.  If you believe this then we have a problem in the transsexual community.

Now I realize people vehemently disagree with this but it is quite simple and undeniable. If our brains are truly female at birth then our sexual preference should mirror that of genetic women. Anyone that says otherwise is denying that this is a medical condition and implying it is mental.

Over 50%, U of Minn study, of transitioners are lesbian in our current time period. That means approx 4 out of every 5 are  either frauds or this is not a medical condition. Whether one wants to admit it or not sexual preference is eventually part of being a woman and being female at birth should set our percentages to mirror genetic women. This is an undeniable fact and even if the percentages change minimally it simply shows a lot of heterosexual men are living a fantasy and becoming women to live a lesbian lifestyle which is fine by me except for the simple fact it denies transsexualism as a medical condition.

Take your choice folks. If all the transitioners that are lesbian are truly transsexual then this is not a medical condition. You cannot have it both ways. There are many that would like to make the claim that sexual partner preference is not associated with being born transsexual and thus would then deny the fact that being a girl has no relationship with sex partner choice.  It does whether you want to believe it or not. It is part of being a girl.

I say we have a medical condition which means I have issues with the many transitioners that are lesbian as in the fact too many transitioners and transsexuals are lesbian. Maybe it is the classic case of the heterosexual transvestite needing to take the sexual buzz to the next level and that means claiming transsexual or maybe it is something else but something is wrong in the world of transsexuals and it is not the transsexuals it is the pretenders.

56 comments:

Sandra said...

You know, there is a very simple solution.. Stop trying to understand transsexualism as one (1) condition. It never was. That late transitioners (who predominantly are lesbian or lying) are basically full of BS is no news either. Why Bother trying to make sense of it..

Anne said...

"the problem as I see it is that some people want to make being TS a club with certain rules and if you do not meet the somewhat arbitrary criteria they have established, then you should not be allowed in the club." ~:P, commenting on Ariel's post in defense of/explaining a "late transition"

Comments like this one just exemlify how out of touch thse folks are with the harsh reality of what it means to be born neurologically mis-sexed. I do not believe it is that they do not understand, but that they REFUSE or are AFRAID to understand that is just NOT who or how they are.

Sad, really.

Deena said...

Elizabeth facts can be very interesting and often shed light where you might least expect it. Let me give you an example. I have thousands of ovary equipped friends and not one single one maintains a blog concerned with transsexual issues. If I ever meet one who does then I might draw the conclusion that she has mental issues.

Carlita said...

Speaking as someone who is considering a late transition, I found this blog to be as hurtful as it was misguided ... Many, many, many of us battle against our dysphoria. We deny it, suppress it, or simply try to live as best we can in our natal gender because the risks or losses associated with transition seem too great. Then we find we have marriages, children, dependents, etc and suddenly we have to think about them and their needs. And they come first. So we bury our trans identities even deeper. I'm not saying that's a smart move in the long run, but it often arises from good intentions and concern for others ... and it certainly doesn't make our feelings of dysphoria any less valid.

As for the notion that no MTF should ever find women attractive ... well, sexual proclivity and gender identity are two totally different things - which is why transsexuality and homosexuality are two different categories.

I have an FTM friend who was a lesbian as a woman, but is now a gay man. His homosexuality remained constant, irrespective of gender. Like a lot of MTF-identifying men, I love women, find them attractive, have been married and had girlfriends ... but I find sex problematic, often unsatisfying and frankly frustrating as a man. I would far, far rather be in my female partners' role. As a man I do not desire other men. As a woman, I'm 99% certain that I would - in fact, I've dreamed of it all my life.

I grew up at a time, and in a culture where gender issues were far, far less understood or accepted than they are now (and, yes, that's saying something). I repeatedly told shrinks about how I felt and was repeatedly told by them that I was imagining my dysphoria, it wasn't real, I should just get over it, etc. So I tried my absolute damnedest to be the man they expected me to be, and in some ways it worked. I got the wife, the kid, the house, the career ...

... I just didn't get me. I'm trying to get to the point where I can do something about that And in the meantime, I don't wan to hear that I'm somehow not a real, or good enough transsexual because i wasn't able to fulfill my dream at 16 - which I certainly would have done if I'd been given the chance - and live my whole adult life as a woman ...

Elizabeth said...

@Deena,

I spend less than an hour a day on this blog and it is simple if you do not like it DO NOT READ it.

Plus, pick a better analogy since being transsexual is far different from having ovaries.

Let me guess. Deena is a late transitioning lesbian. Well look around at your other lesbian trans friends because 4 out of 5 are really men.

Elizabeth said...

@Carlita,

You are CONSIDERING a transition? This is a choice one makes?

You make Blanchard smile because you are a walking and talking advertisement for AGP which diminishes the chances of this condition ever being removed from the DSM.

That is what all like you miss. You hurt transsexuals.

Dawn1257 said...

From Dr. Harry Benjamin's, The Symphony of the Sexes,

“When first interviewed, the patient may appear to be a TV of the first or second group. He often hesitates to reveal his wish for a sex change right away. Only after closer contact has been established and confidence gained does the true nature of his deviation gradually emerge. Such seeming "progression" was observed in five or six out of my 152 transsexual patients, on whom I am reporting in this volume.
The opposite is rare but I have seen it happen. The apparent transvestite, or even transsexual, under treatment or - more likely - through outside influence (meeting the right girl) - turns toward heterosexuality and "normal" life. For how long is always the question”

Dawn is standing over here, waving her hands and yelling, “Hello! Hey, that's me he's talking about!”
So yes, Elizabeth. We can and do exist as late transitioners, and with validity as prescribed by the good Doctor. Granted it is rare. Or, at least so observed by Dr. Benjamin at the time. But, let's keep in mind the time frame and the society at large mindset and philosophy about the issue as a whole. Then it just might be that there were just as many out there then as now who for what ever reason couldn't find the courage to admit who they were/are, or do anything about it.

As you and I have had this discussion back and forth for a few days now, you have consistently wanted to know about the relationship between my wife and I. Particularly that of my wife supposedly “turning lesbian”. I'm going to reveal to you a snip-it of that which you asked of me, and also a partial answer to the question you say none of us late transitioners will answer. Let me just say, she (my wife) does not consider herself to be a lesbian, nor do I identify as such either. What has occurred as a result my being transexual is that I am currently asexual. There is no sexual gratification, and there hasn't been since very near the beginning of my transition. It happens. I have no desire for a sexual relationship. And, if you think that there was never a woman who hasn't been asexual before, I invite you to review some psychology on the matter. My wife is okay with this. Sexual relations were never a 'be all end all' for her anyway.
So, there ya' go! I think it qualifies as a blurred gray area (also talked about by Dr Benjamin) in those group/types. Elizabeth, I think your placing too much emphasis on the sexuality issue. Your painting it with far too rigid a brush and failing to examine some other very real possibilities.
In a small measure of support for your argument though, this is a medical condition and not a mental one. At least not on my account.

Elizabeth said...

@Dawn,

Well the simple fact is I want to thank you for this clarification. I would suggest you return to The Transsexual Phenomenon and realize a transvestite may merge into Type IV transsexual but Harry never recommended surgery for type IV although one for sure, Renee Richards, did manage to deceive her way to it. Type IV are not surgically tracked.

So now you are asexual and neither of you are lesbian. So for you it was all about getting a female body. Interesting, very interesting and yes it is a blurred gray area but not a transsexual gray area. A transvestite/pseudo transsexual gray area is what it is.

I have had a wonderful life and have no regrets. Despite what you may believe I hope you are happy.

Ariel said...

I agree with you that transsexualism is a birth condition and a medical condition. I also agree with you that both the sheer number of male-bodied people who transition later in life and the number of them who remain attracted to women need explaining. I think, however, that more factors need to be taken into account than you are doing.

"Female brain" is OK as shorthand but too simplistic for science. Studies show that the brains of MTF transsexuals resemble those of natal women in some ways, but they are not "female brains." We're always a little different. We do, of course, have the part that tells us that our bodies ought to be female.

One thing that is different than for natal women, in our bodies if not in our brains, is prenatal exposure to androgens. Another is the surge in testosterone that takes place at puberty. You have said that your testosterone level was abnomally low, so it would seem that you are an exception in this area.

I don't think that sexual orientation, sex, and gender are necessarily linked, but I think research shows that the assertion that there is no connection between sexual orientation and gender identity is false. I'm thinking specifically of research done on girls with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. One thing that happens in utero in cases of CAH is a burst of androgens at a particular point in development, which happens to male fetuses but not to non-CAH females. Among other characteristics, a larger percentage of women with CAH are sexually attracted to other women than in the population of women as a whole. Testosterone is not the direct cause of sexual attraction to women, but neither is it unrelated.

So start with brains that aren't exactly "female," and add testosterone.

I don't think that explains everything. I think it's almost certain that some who transition are not, in fact, transsexual. Even with exposure to testosterone, I think there should be fewer MTFs who are gynephilic. So I agree that explanations are needed. But I don't think that sexual orientation toward women automatically means that those people do not have a medical condition. I know two early transitioners, post-op, who are both gynephilic. "Being a girl" sometimes still means being attracted to women.

I also know quite a number of pre- and post-op women (including myself in the latter group), even those who transitioned later, whose primary sexual orientation is toward men.

Deena said...

@ Elizabeth. I wrote a lengthy reply. It did not go through. The problem may have been my connection. This is a test reply. Ignore it.

Deena said...

OK the test went through. My inet connection gets flaky at times.

I'll try to keep this short. Once, long ago I offered to meet and you scoffed. Until we do you can think of me however you will and I will think of you as a balding 64 year old male presenting false credentials to the virtual world. Fair?

Dawn1257 said...

Elizabeth,

Asexuality is probably one of the least understood in the classifications of the sexuality spectrum. But, it is what it is. I have no regrets and frankly, have never been happier.

I haven't finished Dr. Benjamin's book yet. Although it is a very interesting read. I will finish it soon. Yet, I don't feel I need to be classified on his or anyone else's scale, chart or yardstick. I know what and who I am. I know that medical intervention is what saved me. Whether I would be classified as you say, or as something else doesn't matter to me. If you want to 'own' the label transexual. Go ahead, keep it. I don't need it either. After all, that's in my past. The problem comes with others like me who would not be able to access the necessary medical intervention to alleviate such a debilitating life existence, as it was for me. By staying with the model that Dr. Benjamin and you, yourself evidently ascribe to; should there be a DSM revision that also follows these identical criteria there will be unfortunate consequences to those such as myself and having the fortunate circumstances that I had/have. This would be a travesty in my opinion.

Also, thank you for you last comment not being as negative as those prior. I certainly appreciate that.

Anne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Elizabeth said...

@Deena,

ROFLMAO.

Of course I am Deena.

Why would I want to meet a man in a dress or maybe you are a rapist or a predator of some kind. Oh lord I bet you are a total pervert but then I already was quite sure of that.

Anne said...

"So we bury our trans identities even deeper. I'm not saying that's a smart move in the long run, but it often arises from good intentions and concern for others ...I have an FTM friend who was a lesbian as a woman, but is now a gay man. His homosexuality remained constant, irrespective of gender" ~Carlita

The road to Hell is paved with "good intentions", and given that your friend's homosexuality remains constant, why would that NOT apply to heterosexuality in women?

"As a man I do not desire other men. As a woman, I'm 99% certain that I would - in fact, I've dreamed of it all my life." ~Carlita....QED

@Dawn. ("...there were just as many out there then as now who for what ever reason couldn't find the courage to admit who they were/are, or do anything about it" ~Dawn

"...FIND THE COURAGE TO ADMIT WHO THEY ARE..." Indeed.

I would also like to thank you for your candor regarding your resulting asexuality. I think that for later transitioners, especially for those with less than active sexuality this might be the norm. PLEASE understand, I am not making a "judgement" here, just an observation.

Ariel is an interesting case in that she has described herself on her blog as having "always been bi-sexual and sexually active". I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this other than to suspect that there seems to be a fairly notable variance between your Type's IV, V and VI.

Based on my reading of Elizabeth's experience, I can note several significant differences in my own personal experience. Now, while I have never been "officially" diagnosed, I see my experience as somewhat different from Liz's or even "CassandraSpeaks" who both appear TO ME as pretty extreme examples of Type VI's. Because I was exclusively attracted to and active with females prior to my transition, I was VERY pleasantly surprised to find that my orientation changed 180 degrees to a very strong attraction to and compatibility with, MEN.

Remember that one of Dr. Benjamin's MAJOR caveats was that there was SIGNIFICANT OVER-LAP between his PRELIMINARY classifications. While one can debate ad nauseum, where one lies on Benjamin's Scale, THERE IS NO QUESTION that there are HUGE numbers of "wannabe" transsexuals, who are in fact something else, perhaps Type III's and IV's.

In lieu of a better "measurement device", I like Dr. Benjamin's "Scale". Even if inexact, it at least serves as a starting point

Elizabeth said...

@Anne,

why did you delete your comment?

Afraid of backlash?

Anne said...

No......... I re-posted an edited version!

I cahnaged ONE WORD!!!!!!

Deena said...

Elizabeth you responded as always with what you must consider derision. Sad. It should be very apparent to everyone by now that you are not the persona you pretend to be. Over many years I have encountered a wide variety of people on the net. The acid test is always whether someone will meet IRL. You won't. That my dear is a fail. You can jest, scoff, chortle or evade however you deem appropriate but it is still a fail. Let's take your latest dodge. No woman would be afraid to meet in a public place with a suspected "man in a dress". I mean get real. You can bring along an armed guard or whatever makes you comfortable. But you can't. It would mean your exposure. It would end your charade.

Did you ever play poker? I'll see your raise and double it. Put up or fold.

Elizabeth said...

@Dawn

You are the one that started the negative comments not me. I posted a list of items I did not understand. One can chose to talk rationally or talk otherwise. You chose otherwise.

The problem is transsexualism needs to removed from the DSM and that is the problem.You muddy the waters and make it easier for Blanchard and his ilk to prevent that from happening.

That is surely not intentional but it is the big issue. With all the late transitioners and the now late onset transsexual crowd the chances of getting it removed from the DSM is almost zero.

I care about the kids first, the young adults second, the ones in their 30's next.

Elizabeth said...

@Deena,

ROFLMAO. Again we have the man in a dress aka the late transitioning lesbian calling the early transitioner a fraud. You started the nastiness asshole and you are certainly an asshole.

I have met many people in real life but I am careful who I meet. I do NOT meet transvestites from Florida. By the way only transvestites like to meet in person without having a friendship developed over time that leads to some form of trust even on the internet.

Here is the name of a dear friend you can check with.

http://www.antijen.org/links.html

Ask her if she knows Beth who moved to Carolina. Then after she tells you she knows me well and we have met in person multiple times try another attack. Tell her you think I am a fraud and that I did not pay for everything for a kid named Megan and if I didn't help another that had financial issues and serious complications and could not afford to get back to Thailand.

This all goes back to the Aria and Susan Taylor crap where you started this crap before. Now go back and tell them you failed again like the little man you are.

Not one single woman I know that leads a private life would EVER meet some worthless piece of shit like you. The single fact you would insist I meet you makes this entire scenario total bullshit.

If one becomes friends then one meets after a friendship develops. As for your worthless testosterone overdosed self just crawl back into the shithole you were spawned in.

Anne said...

WOW!!! Great save Liz. Thank you. The one word that I wanted to change was 'among' in place of 'between', in the following phrase..."seems to be a fairly notable variance between your Type's IV, V and VI"

The edited phrase should read..."...seems to be a fairly notable variance AMONG your Type's IV, V and VI."

Elizabeth said...

@Deena,

In your case it is clearly mental because you are a mental case. Now say goodbye.

Elizabeth said...

@Ariel,

I did not mean to ignore your post. I do not believe any surge in androgen or even estrogen determines whether one is gay or straight. I do believe there may be circumstances that tend to make a higher percentage of later transitioning transsexuals lesbian to a higher percentage but 50% is just wrong.

This is pretty simple actually and on this point I do agree with Aria Blue. You either are or you are not transsexual. There is no such thing as true late onset transsexualism. Going from a super transvestite to a mild transsexual does not make you a surgical candidate.

I do not wish anyone any unhappiness but I fear and that the attempts to remove transsexualism from the DSM are doomed. It will stay a mental disorder as long as the DSM is conveniently allowed to state a late transitioner need only have gender dysphoria for several years to claim transsexualism unlike children which have to go through hoops and a much more rigid set of criteria. If born transsexual then the DSM is wrong.

I fear people such as Dawn and others would just as soon have it remain in the DSM as a mental disorder because it fits their respective needs. I do not want to deny them their happiness but it is a very serious quandary. The children are the ones being harmed while they are being served up on a plate the belief they are transsexual as long as it is in the DSM.

If it is a medical condition children will receive medical care by under current insurance policies and those that are truly transsexual will also. As long as it remains in DSM it is mental and unless forced to do so by either a municipality or a large employer it will not be covered.

My low levels of testosterone production did not have anything to do with the fact I was born transsexual. I just was and like some of my friends I fought to be what I should have been but that was just me. I was very strong willed.

I do not deny that many later or late transitioners are truly transsexual and that a certain percentage will be lesbian and will not deny that percentage could be slightly higher than normal for women but not 50% verses 15%-20%. Maybe it is convenience that keeps couples together but the simple fact is in this day and age the number of late transitioners should be getting smaller instead of higher.

I am closer to seventy than I am to sixty but I have for 40 years helped kids like me and in all honesty they are who I care about. In Britain children cannot get help because the NHS is inundated with "old wankers", told this by NHS in Wales and Midlands, and they have the political clout to scream the loudest and not care about the rancor or publicity.

The dream of getting transsexualism declared a medical condition is dying fast and it is for reasons that clear, present, and undeniable.

Quite sad actually but then it was to be expected. Men have always wanted to invade women's space while keeping us from theirs. It seems they are succeeding on an entirely new front. They are buying vaginas and calling themselves women.

Elizabeth said...

@Carlita,

I noticed you over on Susan's place quoting Blanchard thusly:

"She is also plain wrong. The research data is very clear on this ... "In adult patients with GID, Blanchard (1989) noted that a large majority of biological females with gender dysphoria have a gynephilic (homosexual) sexual orientation--that is, they are sexually attracted to other biological females--whereas biological males are more equally distributed between an androphilic (homosexual) and a non-androphilic (heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual) sexual orientation (see also Smith, van Goozen, Kuiper, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2005)."

In other words, many MTFs are attracted to women pre-tramsition and of those it's reasonable to assume that many will continue to be attracted to women post-transition. Others will discover, as many of the Susan's Place family have done, that they respond sexually to men once they have female hormones and a female body. Either way, why should anyone judge or criticize them?

We all have our own individual experience of GID ... one of the great joys of a site like this is that it allows us to share the things we have in common while celebrating those that make us unique."

Thanks for making my case. Blanchard is not a researcher you blithering fucking IDIOT. He is the one trying to make this a mental disorder and I gather you think you are mentally ill. I agree with your assessment plus you are AGP or basically because you are reading comprehension challenged you are according to Blanchard a a man enthralled with yourself as a woman thus AGP.

Anonymous said...

I’ve stayed in the background of all this “exchange of jibes” partly because of real life commitments and partly because well, Elizabeth is clearly capable of putting up a greater than adequate defence.

Over the years one of the most common antagonistic comments that get aimed at me is the accusation that if I an as totally assimilated as I claim why do I still contribute to blogs. If I am so completely female and comfortable in that femininity what do I still mix on the net with so called transsexuals. I’ve never answered that question until now because frankly why should I bother to justify myself.

The reason is two fold at least. I have never shared my medical past with my husband so there are things I cannot discuss with him. I have many girlfriends with whom I discuss all of the things women discuss with each other and not a one has any inkling of my medical past. That is one reason. So I have long since sought the kind of friendship I once had some 16 years ago with a girlfriend who was also transsexual and shared some childhood trauma. Through no fault of our own we have lost touch. Since I keep my medical past a closely guarded secret I have not a soul in my life with whom I can share my life. I keep my past a secret not out of shame but out of a desire to be free of the stigma that comes with association with the public personalities that are seen on Springer, Oprah etc etc. None of whom bare any resemblance to my own narrative.

Under my blog title “Cassandraspeaks” and the name Evangelina Carters I have written essays about the subject of transsexuality and included some small details of my life. However, only two people know my real life name, the one my husband calls me, the owner of this blog and one other person. Both of these people know full well that if they lived in the next frigging street I would not let them know and neither would I meet them. Why?

Well, the answer is quite simple; way back when a child all I ever desired was to be a girl a real girl, to have boyfriends and then a husband and to bare children, babies I could nurture and nurse. Post transition I do not have any desire to have that past that I left thirty years ago on a hospital operating theatre follow me into my current life. I do not wish to have to deal with the inevitable questions that would get asked and have my husband feel he too has to protect my history. This is MY choice to make and no-one else’s. I would not meet another TS 3D period. Every genuine TS I have ever known feel exactly the same with no exceptions.
So Deena and Ariel get this through your heads will you neither me nor Elizabeth feel under any obligation to meet any of you ever in order to justify ourselves or our bonafides. What ever you all make of that is your own affair and of no consequence certainly not to me and I suspect Liz feels the same.

to be cont.

Anonymous said...

Deena, for someone who is pressing another for a 3D meeting a posting link that leads to a blank blog page is not encouraging, especially give you aggression and links to Aria, Susan Taylor etc. All of whom have expressed antagonism towards this blog owner and myself. I’m damn sure that I if knew you were in New York at a certain time, I’d make absolutely certain I was in New Delhi and ever that is too close for comfort!

All of the claims made by late transitioners make no sense at all when the true facts of your lives are exposed, which you do whether you realise it or not with the comments you make and the things you don’t say. Here is something from the comments section here that is glaring in it obvious misunderstanding:-

Speaking as someone who is considering a late transition, I found this blog to be as hurtful as it was misguided ... Many, many, many of us battle against our dysphoria. We deny it, suppress it, or simply try to live as best we can in our natal gender because the risks or losses associated with transition seem too great.

Right there is an inference that there is some element of choice involved which was pointed out as a disqualifier in itself. Then later in the same comment the same writer says:-

I got the wife, the kid, the house, the career.

It’s pretty hard to understand from my perspective how that can happen and if I don’t understand it Joe public isn’t going to grasp it either. This is exactly what Liz was saying in this post. “I don’t understand” I have to say I don’t either and certainly no comprehensible answer has been forthcoming. The idea that something as all consuming as the emotion and drive that I felt from age three at least forward would not allow such events to take pace. This drive that is transsexual cannot be so controlled as to allow an outwardly successful marriage to survive into late middle age. It is just not comprehensible. So unless an more believable explanation is forthcoming I am sticking to the contents of my essays available ot TS Si on the issue.

Cassandraspeaks

Deena said...

@ Beth. Thank you for the link. I went there and found lots of stale links and nothing on Jen. It appears the last update was Jan 2011. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any way to do as you suggested and contact Jen, whoever Jen is.

Your approach to interaction tickles me. You make assumptions and then hurl insults. I have never provided you any details of my life and the accusations you make are funny. In fact you seem threatened by the idea that anyone would want tangible proof that you are what you represent yourself to be. Surly you aren't but it reads that way.

I do enjoy reading some of your analysis. I actually agree with what you are pointing out about the percentages. For many decades I have found it very strange to witness a person altering their genitals and then chase skirts. I know I am ditzy but it seems if someone wants to make love to women that person should keep their penis. Sure, I know lesbians exist but far fewer than heterosexual women so such a person has vastly reduced their own opportunities and even more so because most ovary equipped lesbians are not attracted to surgically altered former men. I personally have nothing against lesbians but on the rare occasions that I've been hit on by one I have always politely declined. I'll go out on a limb and assume your experience on that score is the same.

@ Cassandraspeaks. Your points are well made. Let me clarify one thing for you. I don't really want to meet Beth as much as simply find a way to validate that she is real. Even that is not necessary to having a civil discourse on the concepts and thoughts Beth presents here. Call me cynical if you want but over the years I have encountered many fakes. I'll let you know if I head to New York so you can buy your ticket to New Delhi.

Ariel said...

@Cassandraspeaks

As I wrote, I was kidding about meeting you for lunch. Teasing really. Some people are humour-challenged.

Anne asked, more than once, to meet me, and we met up. Does that mean she is not genuine? I certainly hope you're not saying or even implying that. What kind of meetup was it? One of two women who got together, chatted about all kinds of things, and shared lunch together. Normal life.

Dawn1257 said...

Good morning Elizabeth,

“You are the one that started the negative comments not me. I posted a list of items I did not understand. One can chose to talk rationally or talk otherwise. You chose otherwise.”

.........hhhmm, oh never-mind.

There are and have been a LOT of assumptions about my status both physically and sexually. As well there have been what I can only describe could be termed as accusations of not really being who I know of myself. That's all okay. I don't take any of these personally. Life's much too short and hectic to let things such as this get in the way of a productive day. I feel a part of those assumptions made are a result of not knowing more of my medical background. Which is understandable. I would though, now, like an opportunity to impart a bit more of my position. It may or may not be construed as pertinent to the topic in this post. But, I feel it is.

No, I won't proclaim to be a psychologist. I won't claim to have all the answers about this condition called transexuality. But, if nothing else I do know me.

I never once stated that I was a “lesbian”. You did. I never stated that I live in a “lesbian relationship” with my wife. You did. I did admit to being asexual. You've apparently now perceived that as something that just simply happened (“So now you are asexual and neither of you are lesbian”) to me. It did not. If you read carefully the way I structured the sentences pertaining to this (telling of the asexuality) it will be clear. Misunderstandings; this is what happens when one only knows so much (usually far too little) about another person, before making assumptions. And, please if I am mis-characterizing you thoughts here, do say so.

My asexuality like my transexuality took a while to get a handle on. Once I realized though through research after it (asexuality) really hit me in transition, I understood that I have been asexual all of my life. Being asexual does not necessarily mean that you won't have sex, it also represents that you're not preoccupied with the thoughts of it and most times when you do engage in sex acts, the culminated acts leave you feeling displeasure rather than pleased afterward. In my case there was always a strong feeling of guilt. And, this is the way it has been for 31 years of marriage. Only in the last few years has the asexuality morphed into complete lack of sexual desire and abstinence.

Dawn1257 said...

I think I can attribute the sexual urges that I did possess to the testosterone levels flowing through my body. Beginning around the age of 42 those urges diminished substantially. My doctor offered Viagra. I declined. Rather than go into a long diatribe about the particulars of my physiology, it was determined that I suffered from severely low testosterone levels from a likely early age. Leading to a misdiagnosed condition of acute anemia, and a very real onset of moderate to severe Osteoporosis. Not many 'real' men get that condition at a younger age than about 70!

Anyway, I'm not trying to justify or validate my transexual status by inferring that it is something akin to an intersex condition. But then there is this, my son has Klinefelter syndrome, he's 47xxy. From what I have researched on that; it is an intersex condition in which the extra X chromosome is passed along by the host father. That'd be me! So, I have weird anomalies within. Whether or not they have any bearing on my transexuality is debatable.

The point I'm attempting to make with all of this is, whatever caused me to be transexual is purely physical and not at all mental. The only mental aspect is that of the depression I suffered with for YEARS (some think, including my mother that I've suffered with depression since childhood) prior to “coming out”. That depression is a direct result of not understanding the incongruous feeling about my own self. And, isn't it strange that once the depression was alleviated, my entire state of mind is no longer fuzzy. That was when it really hit me, that I am female. That I had to be who I am. And, yes that would be at any cost. I was willing to lose it all. It simply turned out that I didn't have to. Fortunately for me, my wife was willing to adjust her life to accommodate for such a socially altering event.

Disclaimer: If you think this is just more 'memorized narrative', I ask you to reconsider. My mother who is 75, is still around to testify to the validity of what I say. She was never one to coddle me or any of my siblings. But, she would often ask me when I was young what created so much anger in me. I couldn't give her any answer to it, except that I did tell her I just felt odd and did not like doing the things other boys did. I couldn't talk to her about it. She wouldn't listen. Her response to me was to get up, get going and to quit feeling sorry for myself. That's as much support as I ever got from her.

Go ahead, I know what you all are going to say. “You're still just a transvestite, or pseudo-transexual”. The funny thing is, there never has been a time when I saw myself dressed as or even being a woman having sex with a man. Sorry, Mr. Blanchard! He can take his AGP theory and stick it! There never was a time in which I gleaned sexual satisfaction over women's clothes. Isn't it odd that now that I am the woman I eventually knew I should have always been, that I still have no sexual attraction, nor sexual desires. If anything they have decreased further. Yet, I am happier still.

Elizabeth said...

@Dawn,

Dawn in your first comment you basically attacked me. No where in that post did I say I hated anyone or disliked anyone or wished anyone any ill will. It is very simple. You will never understand me and I will never understand many of the late transitioners.

My issues are that it is now impossible for transsexualism to be removed from the DSM.

In truth Dawn I am confused by you even more. Low testosterone, intersex, etc. are interesting tidbits and I do not wish anyone anything but happiness but and the big but is the issues of whether this is medical have been clouded and probably irreparably harmed.

I realize it is not your fault nor would you wish this but Blanchard smiles every time another late transitioning lesbian shows up. In his pee-brain it means justification.



@Ariel,

Because Anne meets with someone does not make it relevant. Maybe Anne considered you a friend or is more trusting but meeting 3D is a transvestite urge prevalent in every TV/CD blog post on T-Central. They all want to meet and great.

It is also something very prevalent in older transitioners for whatever reasons. My life is very private and has been for around 40 years. Why should any of us want to meet someone that then has the ability to out you completely?

Just asking without being a close friend or even internet friend is in my opinion insulting and very aggressive behavior.

Dawn1257 said...

Elizabeth,

In all fairness, since you feel I attacked you; my sincerest of apologies. This issue of late vs. early is a touchy subject. At least it is for me. If I have been perceived as flying off the handle, then I admit to being wrong. I'll bear that responsibility, fully. Likewise, ever mindful of not letting that occur in the future.

As for the issue of damages done concerning listing in the DSM. I think we can find some common ground. Though, I do feel it is not necessarily all the “late transitioners” fault alone. There probably are some who should be categorized and dealt with compassionately as TV, rather than TS. One thing I see occurring is a overwhelming prevalence of college aged youth that for whatever reason are “coming out” at about the same time they are away from home for (in some cases) the first time in their collective lives. Being so young, I fear that their minds are still reasonably impressionable mush. I may be wrong, but, I have concerns over outside undue influence getting hold of some of these young people who then all of a sudden proclaim their GI opposite. Is this the TG movement “recruiting”? I don't know. Potentially, I suppose.

One thing is clear though, with this many people coming out as TS, there certainly ought to be some in depth, real and non-agenda driven research done to look into the phenomena.

As for myself. I'll always be convinced, fully, of being transexual at birth. I think there is something going one genetically in my background. Whether it's connected, again I cannot say. I simply don't know. Yet it is awfully coincidental. There's more in my family history concerning this but, I'll not waste everyone's time with all of that.

Thank you. Enjoy the weekend!

Ariel said...

Elizabeth, when I wrote that Anne and I met up, at her request, I was responding to what Cassandraspeaks wrote: "I would not meet another TS 3D period. Every genuine TS I have ever known feel exactly the same with no exceptions." Since she makes no exceptions, she was implying, or really stating, that Anne was not genuinely TS.

It seems odd to me to categorically rule out friendship with another woman because of a shared history. But that's her business.

I said nothing about you meeting anyone. And I quite agree about meeting strangers. I would never meet with anyone I "know" via the internet unless there had been extensive contact. In the case of Anne and me, we had been writing and IMing, even with webcams, for many months. I think we even spoke on the phone once. Even though we have had difficulties lately, I trust that she would never out me (the equivalent of a thermonuclear attack is the way she puts it), just as I know (and hope she knows) that I would never out her. I would never out anyone.

I try to maintain a healthy skepticism, but when it comes to people, I probably trust too easily. I would rather err in that direction, however, than to be too suspicious. That said, I understand completely why anyone who has built a completely non-trans life would be vigilant in guarding her privacy.

Dawn1257 said...

Oh, I had one other thought about this medical vs. mental issue. I think we can thank U.S. Senators Armstrong and Helms back in what, 1989 (I think) for including transexuality as an excluded class from the A.D.A. (Americans with Disabilities Act)in also helping to keep it listed in the DSM. I know, I know. No body wants to be seen as having a disability. Yet, removal of it as an non-covered issue under the A.D.A. especially as in relation to paraphilia's would go a long way to putting it in a better light socially. Probably in the medical circles too.

Stacy said...

I've seen soooo much of this dialogue lately....

I think you can take obvious cases of autogynephilia and classify it as mental. There's a whole host of environmental factors, such as abuse or the "my crazy mother dressed me like a girl" cases that can result in some confusion that you could also classify as mental. Mental, mental, mental, and please, stay the heck out of the ladies room. Agreed?

Assuming everyone agrees that there's no way transition would be healthy or helpful for those individuals, then good, we're still on the same page.

There's still the question of early vs. late transition - and the validity of late transition in general.

There's ALWAYS been transsexuality in any population and always will be. There's no doubt in my mind (and why should there be?) that early transitioners are what they are - women. That's physical, that's medical.

But what can't be ignored in regards to late transitioners are the inherent differences of their life experience up to transition.
Having lived in a male gender role, is it possible that the higher incidence of lesbianism, post-transition is related to having lived in and having hated that male gender role?

Others may identify as lesbian as a matter of practicality - having specifically developed relationships with wives or significant others that they try to preserve.

They can't ALL be crazy..

What if the mechanism of some late transitioners transsexuality is just different, slightly, due to other environmental factors - differing from what we'd call the 'normal transsexual occurrences' in any given population?

There's no doubt that there are far more transitioners in their 40's and 50's right now than there ever have been. Could it be explained by the massive doses of synthetic estrogen(s) prescribed in the 1950's and 1960's to prevent miscarriages? These drugs were derived of synthetic horse estrogen, designed specifically to have potent effects on human pregnancy.

There's got to be serious consideration given to that sort of unnatural introduction of anything - especially man-made hormones - into any pregnancy.
There's also got to be rational thought applied to whether those 'man-made' transsexuals could be just a little different than the naturally occurring transsexual population - right?
Maybe there's a higher incidence of lesbianism within their population...

What if there's TWO kinds of 'real' transsexuals?
Would either problem be less "medical"?

Just floating a theory.... maybe we can all meet up in 20 years and discuss what kind of birth defects are caused by artificial sweeteners....

Stacy

Leigh said...

I'll take a shot at this one ..

This whole late transition, the marriage and the kids thing, yeah it's just a lot of horse hockey as far as I am concerned.

Well, I guess everyone needs a hobby when they retire from that senior vice president of marketing job, the kids married or off at college and the wife is busy doting on the grandkids and leaving grandpa to fend for himself, feeling pretty lonely, looking back at a lifetime of missed opportunity.

Remember when? .. ah yes that 59 T-Bird ... I can afford that now, he thinks and visualizes his balding masculine frame behind the wheel, yeah and thats another thing I miss, he says to himself, that whole being me thing .. damn those girls I talk to on the internet are right! .. I really need to get out more, meet people, be myself .. hey! they seem to all be having a blast! .. Melissa and Monica, Melinda and Melanie .. yeah I bet I could show them a thing or two about how a woman is, what a woman should be, how they should dress .. oh yeah .. dang I almost forgot how that used to feel, the nylons, the skirts and the heels!!!!!!!!! Oh my god .. has it been that long?

Everyone's doing it, heck there is something in the paper every day these days! It's ok now.. it's ok to be me .. darn yes I am just as transsexual as that woman that married the firefighter .. a bit of nip and tuck ..DIET!! ..yes got to start there .. thats important ..

hmmm ... a bit older but hey .. that picture melanie showed me of her breasts! wow! .. and the before and after pics of melissa .. god that girls hot! .. if they can do that why not me? Hormones ..yep thats the magic pill - must remember to have a chat with the doc and see what he can do for me .. oh wait yeah thats right there are those herbal supplements! .. I can do those first .. need to start gradual so nobody notices too much then ...............

....... eh .. yeah the wife.. hmm and the kids? what will they say? darn I sure got myself in a mess here ..there JUST HAS TO BE A WAY !!!!!!!!

Ok .. Internet .. I will get all the advice I need ..and after all ..it's FREE !
..........................................

Well .... dearest darling late transitioner ... bad advice is always free ... especially of guilt!

[ME: 26 years post op and 31 years full time]

... but what the heck do I or any of these other women here know!

Leigh said...

"Could it be explained by the massive doses of synthetic estrogen(s) prescribed in the 1950's and 1960's to prevent miscarriages?" - Stacy

Well no .. but it could be due to the transgender publicity, the ability to have multiple personalities and online gender roles, the aging baby boomers in mid life crisis, the abundance of tg propoganda that Bill will have more fun as Jill, the outright liers and fakers and the wannabee's that are coddled on by transgender activists, and the ability to claim transsexualism to cover their fetish driven, crossdressing and transvestic need to somehow make life more bareable, more exciting, to regain their youth by starting life over...

...... or maybe it was just the milk?

Elizabeth said...

@Leigh,

Duck cause they will be swinging shortly. Humor does sometimes mollify them but not always.

Stacy said...

No swinging, and no need to duck.
I'm not really coming from any particular side of this debate so I am not really defending one. I can only explain myself.
I actually commented because I'm asking myself the very same question: Medical or Mental?

I really don't know what the heck I am, and never have.

Mom was dosed with huge quantities of DES from her fifth week of pregnancy with me right through the end of it at 7 months. Huge amounts of synthetic hormones.

I had a strong dysphoria as a child, as early as I can remember, of which my mother was aware - but she didn't know how do deal with it. Neither did I. We talked, she cared, but she explained and 'corrected', I complied.

SO then, as it was obvious to my little 5 year old mind that 'god didn't make mistakes', I spent the age of 6-10 convinced that I wasn't even human. I expected each trip to the doctor for any little illness to finally confirm that - but it never did, leaving me even more sure that something was just wrong with me.

My 'name' is what it would have been had I been born female, according to Mom... and I have had invasive thoughts of myself as Stacy every day of my life, in one form or another.. not transvestic leather-bound bullwhip fantasies - just thoughts, like I was living someone else's life and would never be me. Never be simply as happy or whole as anyone else.
I use it as an online identity in this sense, because it simply seems more appropriate.

I lived my life the only way I thought I could. I hid my differences, I suppressed it. I did what I was supposed to do, and I've always felt like I came up short for those people that depended on me. I married, I had a daughter.. I feel guilty about it sometimes.
I can't say I was attracted to males romantically - I wasn't. But I have always been able to completely understand it.. people love who they love.
I don't consider myself a 'lesbian'- I just love someone who happens to be female.

I've cross dressed. A lot as a child, until it was clear that it wasn't cute anymore... a dozen times or so over the course of my life, never knowing why. It's not a sexual kick, not in the least.

I finally sought therapy when I realized, that despite a pretty good life, I was disappointed that a cancer scare turned out to be nothing to worry about. I realized I had to get some help understanding myself so I don't spend the rest of my life wondering what the heck is wrong with me, waiting to die. Part of that is accepting this defect in my - whether it's mental, or physical. Then I need to live - just like evreyone else.

I don't want privilege or protection, and I don't want turmoil or transition. I really just want to understand my personality, and stop hiding pieces of myself away.

Medical or Mental? Maybe a bit of both?
Or am I just faking it to make life exciting?

Sarah said...

I started transitioning at 26. Does that make me a late or early transitioner? Whichever. I'm gay. The 100%, would have been classified as a Type III Transvestite, kind of gay.

Only I can't be a transvestite as a I don't dress. I never have and have no interest. I can't fathom how socially and culturally determined CLOTHING can possibly indicate anything about gender.

But strangely enough, there are other girls like me. Who don't want dragon nails or cake on makeup or girly dresses. Who hate pink and like games and are good at math. Even some who screw other girls. And, surprise surprise, not all of them are trans. Lots of them are just ordinary cis girls.

Why do you want to smush everyone together into one category? Why can't we be as diverse as any other girls? Fuhrer Benjamin would have determined me not-trans, and if his views still held sway, I'd be a corpse.

Oh yes I come carrying the badge of suffering. My arms are decorated with hundreds of scars from my nine years of cutting. I swallowed thirty T3 when I was sixteen, and when that didn't work I tried again the next day with an eighty pill cocktail of sleeping pills and cold meds. Still alive, obviously, thanks to my freakish metabolism. I dropped out of high school, starved myself, refused to sleep, another suicide attempt at twenty-one... I spent years wallowing in self-destruction and immobilized with fear.

I thought dying was the superior alternative to transition. Oh yes, I knew what I was. I was never in denial. I was never unsure. But I was terrified. And the media portrayal of "transsexual" just looked like "man in dress" to me. And I wasn't either of those.

So I'm sorry that I wasn't brave enough to start sooner, that I don't like cock, that I despise dresses, that I survived and messed up your standards. But I'm no less a girl than you. We are just different. Just like cis girls are different. Different doesn't have to mean less.

Deena said...

Elizabeth I suspect you are correct about the DSM's continued inclusion but I think it is at least partly due to a business dynamic. Psychiatry is a business.

Consider this. Being gay was removed decades ago. I could never grasp why until it dawned on me the revenue stream dried up. Gays simply stopped seeing psychiatrists and psychologists. Society became more accepting and gay people found nothing of value in seeing a shrink. Sure they brought pressure but the really effective dynamic was simply not seeking services.

In the case of GI or whatever label is attached the SOC functions as a revenue generator. I'm not trying to hijack this into a discussion on the SOC but simply pointing out that the way it evolved requires psychiatric services. Hence the revenue stream. It doesn't matter whether that is good or bad. It exists.

@ Leigh. I enjoyed your essay.

Elizabeth said...

@Stacy,

My heart goes out to you. You just described the horror of gender dysphoria or being born transsexual. It will not go away.

@Sarah,

26 is quite early for transition and the use of the term Fuhrer for Benjamin is beneath contempt. He would have helped you without question and probably not even charged you if you could not have afforded it and you would have received an honest assessment and access to a psychiatrist if needed which would probably have been free also. Harry was the only one never in this for the money.

I wuld like to know why you think the term late transitioner would reference someone who is 26. Late transitioners are late 40's and older. I am unsure what the term transition means if you stay dressed male or do not change you appearance somehow to even be considered tomboy.

Appearance should not but unfortunately does have a lot to do with how one is perceived.

Do you consider yourself gender variant, gay, lesbian, transgender, or transsexual. In your minor rant it is unclear.

If you are a cutter then you have serious underlying psychological issues and need to seek help.


@Deena,

Well the trans world is a money pit for the current crowd controlling it. The SOC has been a joke from the first day it was written. it was written with the late transitioner in mind. What fucking idiot would tell someone to have RLE without the aide of hormones before you can get hormones.

Elizabeth said...

@Sarah,

I reread your post so here goes. If you are gay that means you are a gay man I guess. Why would you use Sarah if you are a gay man?

If you meant lesbian that is not true either since a lesbian with a penis is just a man with boobs to most lesbians I know and I know more than a few.

Maybe a better explanation of who and what you define yourself as is needed.

Deena said...

Elizabeth in 1979 when the first SOC was released by what is now Wpath Harry was 94. I was not in touch with him then and he died in 1986 before I ever got to ask him of his thoughts on the SOC. I always suspected that Harry would not condone nor sanction the absurdities of the SOC. Did you, by chance, ever hear his opinion of them?

Anne said...

"...the media portrayal of "transsexual" just looked like "man in dress" to me. And I wasn't either of those...We are just different. Just like cis girls are different. Different doesn't have to mean less. " ~Sarah

I agree with you on both these points and I think they are VERY relavent and worthy of note.

"I don't want privilege or protection, and I don't want turmoil or transition. I really just want to understand my personality, and stop hiding pieces of myself away." ~Stacy

Sounds like a plan to me Stacy.

Elizabeth said...

@Deena,

Are you telling me you knew Harry Benjamin?

Harry had not one single thing to do with the SOC. He never followed what the SOC preposed.

Deena said...

Beth somewhere around here I have a copy of his book autographed in 1967, less than a year after it hit the shelves.

Harry graciously granted permission for Wpath's predecessor to use his name. When I first read their SOC I was aghast. I expected Harry to denounce it. It was in many ways irrelevant to my life then so I did not try to reach him. I have always wondered how he reacted and thought you might know.

Imadique said...

I'm sorry, can you provide a more valid argument than "this is my opinion, it is fact because I repeat it several times"?

I don't really care enough to engage with a self absorbed little prat spouting conservative right wing ideals of sexuality such as " deny the fact that being a girl has no relationship with sex partner choice. It does whether you want to believe it or not. It is part of being a girl.". That's cut and pasted from your blog by the way, shot your own argument in the foot with the wording there but it matters not seeing as the jist of your argument is that our percentages or preference should mirror the cisgender population. A staggering assumption even if you could gather accurate data on it, and it's rather often lamented how unreliable any statistics on transsexuals are - only those that participate in medical intervention are counted. Aside from that any sociologist with half a brain would realise that you can't just cut and paste statistics across different variations of a species, it's idiotic.

You're right, there is a problem with the transsexual community but it isn't late transitioners or lesbians - the problem is that we let the bigots in.

Bigots who try to sound scientific and end up showing their utter lack of understanding. Perhaps you should have stayed in school a while longer before running off to misrepresent my community as a bunch of self righteous fools?

Elizabeth said...

@Imadique

That comment was in regards to young transsexuals and the issues involved with being a young MTF transsexual and the problems liking boys has in your life. Try again.

If being transsexual is medical then the percentages of those MTF transsexuals with female brains should match the percentages of genetic women within statistical norms that are lesbian so even if we added 10% and say 20% might be lesbian the current percentages are off by a lot.

I gather you are one of the late transitioning lesbian crowd. I have nothing against lesbians and lesbians in general have nothing against transsexuals except old transitioners now playing girl and claiming to be a feminist after being male for 45-50 odd years.

How convenient it is. You had sex with them before you cut it off and now you can have sex with them after you cut it off. Sure makes life safe doesn't it and provides that finish to the wonderful fetishistic transvestite and ultimate male lesbian fantasy by being part of it in person.

Isn't it ironic that the only early study performed before all you idiots living fantasies got involved showed normal distribution for sex partner orientation. The statistical norms fit that of genetic women and led that individual along with other factors to believe this was a medical condition. By the late 70's even he realized there were too many lesbians and it meant people were slipping through the cracks. Now it is like a triple wide San Andreas Fault.

I do not want to be part of your late transitioner lesbian community and you do not own anything. You are probably one of the walking advertisements that an idiot like Blanchard might have actually gotten something correct by accident.

Imadique said...

Actually I'm 27 and started HRT at 24 so no, not particularly late but lesbian yes.

Couldn't give a fuck about sex honestly, it has nothing to do with anything - much like your take on statistics in relation to reality.

To say that someone like me who is not interested in sex at all (with myself or others - don't bother with that reply if you were thinking it) is an advertisement for Autogynephelia is pure idiocy, I believe the only reason you bother with this argument is because you want to make yourself feel special, you want the world to know you're one of the original HB girls - congratulations, you got there first! Have a cookie. I'll grant you that one, you did beat me to it on the mere complication of my not having been born.

Harry Benjamin is dead. The world has progressed by 50 years since his studies, how can you not expect further information and ways of thinking to come forward in half a century?

You ignore so many key factors I don't know why I'm bothering to give you a response, it's just that I worry people might actually listen to you I guess. You are safely transitioned many years ago and have nothing to gain from stirring shit about "who is a real transsexual", the only thing that can come of your venom is you can influence people outside the community to think negatively of us and I assume you hope to somehow impact upon our access to medical care because you don't believe we're the real deal.

Wow, what a wonderful human being you are. What an enormously important battle you are fighting in which you have absolutely nothing to lose and nothing to gain but an inflated ego!

Where is your answer for the criticism of your data?

"If being transsexual is medical then the percentages of those MTF transsexuals with female brains should match the percentages of genetic women within statistical norms that are lesbian so even if we added 10% and say 20% might be lesbian the current percentages are off by a lot."

WHERE IS YOUR DATA COMING FROM AND HOW IS IT COMPILED? I can answer that for you. It comes from whomever is a) willing to participate in any given survey and b) statistics gathered from medical professionals - whichever ones bother to report it, and obviously only applies to those seeking medical intervention. A minority as many studies suggest, but you know as they say 93% of all statistics are bullshit.

An argumenmt doesn't consist of constantly stating and restating your orignal point without answering any criticisms of it.

You are nothing but a bitter old woman seeking to make herself feel important.

Elizabeth said...

There has not been one single study since Benjamin that involved the doctor meeting all the patients in a diverse and non-judgemental way.

It has nothing to doi wityh me know Benjamin. That and $2 will get me a nice coffee at Dunkin Donuts.

The statistics are from the University of Minnesota and could be outdated and yes you are correct about statistics. That brings one back to benjamin who had no bias either way.

The fact you are 27 and lesbian fits the norms of younger transsexuals. The question in the post is about the inordinately high percentaqge of late transitioners, 45+ or older, that are lesbian.

Now you have hurt my feelings. So I am a bitter old woman who needs to feel important. I am crushed that you think that way.

I really do nhave to ask the question though. if you have no interest in sex how do you know you are a lesbian? Kind of an awkward question for you but maybe you might actually like guys if youb ever get around to SRS. Lesbians are not fond of lesbians that are packing.

Imadique said...

The fact that I am outside your target group doesn't make any difference to the argument or my eligibility to participate in it.

"I really do nhave to ask the question though. if you have no interest in sex how do you know you are a lesbian?"

Do you actually have a functioning brain? Seriously? My answer to that question is pretty similiar to most girls actually: because I don't find men attractive, it's fairly cut and dry.

I never said I haven't had sex or SRS, more assumptions on your part but it's ok, I don't feel you've made an ass out of me, just you.

Elizabeth said...

@Imadique,

Okay, so you are a dyke. I get it from your identifier.

Well it does seem I am playing guees whether "I am a Dyke" as a vagina or is still packing. Are you still packing?

Kind of odd being a dyke after SRS but that is your right. I am sure everyone loves you just as you are.

Imadique said...

The name comes from this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qffCXkhodks

"Kind of odd being a dyke after SRS but that is your right. I am sure everyone loves you just as you are."

This statement amongst others makes me wonder of your authenticity to be honest, you're really missing the point about the whole transsexual condition in a lot of ways.

Enjoy the Rowan Atkinson, I'm satisfied with my arguments and you seem to be fresh out of anything but personal angles so I take my leave. Good luck with the elitism, hope it keeps you happy and doesn't bring too much loneliness for you.

Elizabeth said...

@Imadique,

Well "Im a dique" plays well as I'm a dyke" and I am surprised your mental capacity cannot grasp that. Your angle only plays well in your world of dummies by the way and Rowan Atkinson was a horrible standup comedian while a genius as the Black Adder. Attempting to rip off george Carlin is not creative.

No eltism here. I always enjoy the liberal elite wingnuts that like to claim others are elitists as they tell everyone they are better than them.

I am better than no other transsexual. Its just that some wanker in a dress is not a transsexual because some "Im a dique" not in a dress says they are. nor are they transsexual because they have a dress on a demand to be addressed as a woman.

And how expected the "authencity" commetn was from someone hidden behind the name "Im a dique".

Now back to school where most "Im a dique" asswipes skipped the course in logic for I am a liberal so I know all.

Anonymous said...

Mmm...

This *is* a can of, erm, worms. I was 15 years old when I first tried hormones (my mother's birth control pills). I didn't maintain the dosage - this was well pre-internet, and my mother's reaction wasn't encouraging,

I was 23 when I first received treatment from a GIC - from Montgomery, a horrid, chilly, pompous dwarf.

I'd known that I was bi from age 14, and I first 'crossdressed' at age 4, to my aggressive, overbearing and overmale father's considerable horror. As a teen, I sometimes used to wear light makeup on the street - it made me feel pretty. I grew up in a very macho environment.

I was 27 when I had surgery. I paid for it myself, and would have had it sooner if Montgomery hadn't been obstructive.

I've been disinterested in sex for most of my life. I lost my virginity aged 24 to a friend who wanted to show me what I'd be missing. I had breast at that point, by the way. Post-surgery, I was unable to orgasm for the first 7 years. I'd undergone surgery with no expectations with regard to my post-operative sex-life, so this was something I was content to live with.

I've had boyfriends and girlfriends, but the first time I ever came as a result of sex with another human being was with an ex-boyfriend I met through the London goth scene. He was beautiful in a cat-like way - lithe and athletic, and a remarkable lover. I've never found another man to match him, and I doubt that I ever will. I was 44 when this happened, and for a while it sent me into shock and confusion, as it seemed like a switch had been thrown.

It turned my sexuality on.

I'd enjoyed the sensuality of sex in the past, and the closeness, the kissing and the cuddling, but this event fundamentally changed my experience. I won't go into details, but my reactions mirror those of my first girlfriend (a gg I met a while after transitioning, aged 25). Conversely, my years of disinterest very much reflect the experiences of my mother, who has always been frigid.

For a while after my experience, I felt that I'd been straight all along, but subsequent gay experiences demonstrated that I was actually more attracted to women.

I share some of your feelings about late transitioners. With a very exceptions, I will not date trans women. I've tried in the past, and it's a depressing and alienating experience, as I just can't connect with the majority on a female level. There's no shared understanding, no feeling that I'm talking to my own kind. Finally, I like curves, and I really don't like body hair.

I cringe when I hear people coming out with asinine masculine misapprehensions about the nature of women. I remember talking to someone who informed me that transsexuals were 'the perfect women'. I never quite followed the logic in that, and it came from a balding someone in their 40s who'd been taking hormones for six months.

Back in pre-history, I went along to some SHAFT (Self Help Association For Transsexuals) meetings, expecting to find people I could relate to, and instead meeting blokes in dresses talking about Cortina mechanics. Some of them actually had beards, which is something I *really* don't understand - facial hair disgusted me and it's hard to see anyone who would willingly grow it as being, um, kosher.

There were exceptions - not all pretty or feminine, but still female.

So, overall, kind of freaked out.

On the other hand, nothing is clear cut, and I would lose my self-respect were I to make sweeping generalisations about late transitioners.

For a long while, I avoided films with a transgender theme. I still loathe Priscilla, Queen of The Desert. Hedwig and The Angry Inch seems to have been written by gay men for gay men, and for the giggle factor.

But, watch 'Normal', sometime. It's one of the saddest and emotionally hard films I've ever taken in, and quite relevant to this topic.

On balance, I'd say I was gay.

Respectfully yours,

Schrei.