Tuesday, October 19, 2010

A challange to Aria Blue and her crowd of 5

****************** Addendum ******************

She did respond and it is in the comments with my
response to her.

********************************************* 

A friend of mine continually tries to post on this persons blog but is moderated because she does not agree with some of her views but certainly not all of them. Aria Blue as I mentioned in an earlier post is someone that bases her entire life and being on the legitimacy of the Person-Ovesey study because quite bluntly it makes her feel she is better than others because she believes the Primary Transsexual definition makes her a Primary transsexual.

In point of fact it makes her the most common transsexual and what Benjamin defined as a Type V. Aria Blue dismisses Benjamin in favor of a study that met only several times with most of the transsexuals and claims to have met with or spoke with the mothers of the subjects but I can point you to two whose mother or parents would gladly have talked with them but were NEVER called. I am one of them.

I would try and post over there but she would simply delete it.  If you have the courage of your convictions then it can be discussed here and I will not delete any comment or rant by any of your minions.

Aria Blue blog

I was there and I participated and you are wrong. Somehow I feel you will not come on down for a discussion.

39 comments:

Anne said...

Liz. May I call you that?

I am SO glad that you pointed this out. I too am one of the many dissidents who agree with some, but clearly, NOT ALL, of Aria's positions.

While she is brilliant in her eloqution, she is myopic in her vision. In addition, I see her fanatical demands that everyone agree with her 100% stifles productive discourse.

What follows is one of my many attempts to regain access to her forum.

"Aria, ATG.

In all seriousness, I am not your enemy. I will state hear again clearly that I stand in agreement with many of your ideas and stated goals. I will note that we have had "issues" in the past, but I would suggest to you that these involved, frankly, what I can only interpret as misunderstandings. I stand more than ready to put those behind us. There are indeed more important matters to be attended to.

Yes I freely admit to living a privileged life, that I will NOT apologize for, having EARNED that privilege by virtue of my own blood, sweat and tears. This does not by any means make me a "better" or "wiser" person than anyone here, but by the same token, it certainly does not qualify as a reason to "other" or resent me, or others who have succeeded in making a comfortable life for themselves. For the most part, for us older, long-time post-ops, the struggle is long past and forgotten.

I will also note that you, (wisely, I believe), chose to NOT post one of my more acerbic commentaries, choosing rather to present your own interpretations of my words. I am fine with that since it shows that you obviously found merit in what I had to say. So I will ask you once again to accept my offer of peace.
Or, as I noted back in Oct/Nov. when I first introduced myself on EN, 'I am easily gone'."

She never posted this, or the more acerbic one where I responded to her rabid accusations that I was "a divorced, 40's something guy with three kids, living in my mothe's basement".

Gee. Was I being "devalidated" ala Saul Alynski?

Elizabeth said...

Anne,

She is a coward and a blowhard. She does not have the heart to debate it with anyone because she is simply trying to make herself believe that she is more important than others and she has her little lackeys and minions that parrot everything she says.

My dear friend Lena who has probably spent $500K minimum helping kids has been banned because she dared ask her a question. If you dare ask a question she doesn't like she answers a question with an accusation such as are you a woman or something like that.

If anyone says they have had a good life or happened to do this young they are liars or elitists. I admit I was born into privilege and I did get a trusts fund but it did not help my transsexual condition.

What my first husband didn't take or spend I used to help others like me and the woman who runs antijen can vouch for that since I helped one of her kids Megan.

To me she appears angry and bitter. I have no idea if she has even had surgery or for that matter has even transitioned not that it matters but spewing some of the drivel she spouts and not allowing open discourse is disingenuous.

She is a coward. She complained about being blocked somewhere but she blocks anyone that dissents or questions her postings.

By the way Liz is the preferred nickname but Beth will do although it is actually Rachel Elizabeth because if I was born a girl that is what mom wanted. A concession from a grateful daughter.

Liz

Dani said...

Hi, Liz! I very much doubt that either Aria herself or any of her fellow travelers will show up here for a free and open debate. They usually stay safely behind the walls of their echo chamber spewing hatred about anyone who doesn't meet their standard of transness. Their hatred of Autumn Sandeen is truly visceral, bordering on unhealthy obsession. It's alright to disagree with Autumn and other activists but Aria's dehumanizing and invalidating of her and others is counterproductive and totaly turns off many who may otherwise agree.

Dani xxx

ariablue said...

Open debate huh? Sure, what do you want to argue about? By the way, it's just me. I'm not interested in forming any little group or that sort of thing that seems to pop up in these trans* personality contests. I think that was behind a lot of acrimony that Anne there had towards me. I don't think she really understood what was going on, that I was just writing and whoever shows up, shows up. She thought it was about a cult of personality or something. Either that or she's a blatant sockpuppet or troll like most people in these arguments. Better to err on the side of caution on the internet and not take people too seriously.

But in the interest of playing nice I'll assume both she and Lena are real people who are actually telling the truth about all those things they are saying. Whatever, you know? I don't really give a crap what most people think so why should I worry about them? I don't have anything against her, I just don't want to deal with her. I'm not getting paid enough for that big of a job, handling a high strung personality like she is.

As to the rest, I simply don't care to allow all the personal attacks and sidetracking of my little blog. I generally have better things to do. Too many fakes and phonys show up any time a trans* discussions starts. I certainly don't believe in the somewhat fantastical stories of all these trolls who just happen to show up just in time to mess with me. I'm not putting up with that crap.

It happens anytime someone stands up to the tg nonsense; "friendly" people show up to support you spouting stupid or outright bigoted and sometimes racist things, discrediting you in the process. That's why I stopped talking to certain people.

ariablue said...

I'm not sure why you think its dehumanizing to state there there is such a thing as true, born transsexuals and the rest are crossdressers. How else can you characterize the situation? If you choose to live a crossdressed lifestyle and say you are in between men and women, that is not my fault or anyone else's but your own. I don't make the rules. In fact, I don't think many of the full time TG people themselves really believe the things they tell the rest of us. Did you see how Autumn Sandeen said that perception is reality, and basically that changing perception and reality is her goal? So she knows. How many others know, and how many are still confused by the rhetoric?

The point is this: you've made a choice, now carry it through. If you really are transsexual there is no way you will ever be happy in tg limbo, so stop playing that game. Do what you have to in order to take care of your business and stop putting it all on other people to make way for you. The outcome of your efforts will be reflected in the life you end up leading after its all over. And at that end, you see who was transsexual, and who wasn't.

It's as simple as that.

So anyway let's see... I'm a coward for blocking trolls on my blog, I dehumanize people with my opinions, I regaled Ann with "rabid accusations" that she was "a divorced, 40's something guy with three kids, living in my mother's basement", I base my identity on a single old study done by psychoanalyst types, I banned Elizabeth's "dear friend" Lena for a single question, I'm angry and bitter and probably haven't had surgery... are there any other charges you'd like to add?

You're right that I am angry and bitter about the trans*washing of the transsexual issue. It's a medical issue that has been hijacked to push a social agenda, to the detriment of everyone born with this problem. And I do have a visceral dislike of the Sandeens of the world. They cynically use the problems of others to raise themselves up, and they don't care how much damage they do to other people in the process. I don't particularly care if people in the trans* world are turned off by the tone or these stances. If that's how they feel, they are and always will be part of the problem, not the solution. The trans* subculture *is* the problem, and people need to recognize that. You think I'm dehumanizing of Sandeen? How do you feel about how Sandeen talks about your genitals, or the way Sandeen denies your womanhood? You think that might be a little dehumanizing? Should I be more tolerant of Sandeen's positions on these things?

Really, the question is as transsexual women, why you AREN'T outraged at the sexism and misogyny that runs rampant through the trans* community. You worry about women like me who call these bastards out on this bullshit and spend all your time running me down. Well where are you in the fight? What are you going to do to put a stop to it? No the problem isn't me speaking the truth. The problem is people like you who allow this blatant injustice towards us and apologize to these asshats for people like me standing up for ourselves. Maybe you all were born to be slaves to this hateful ideology, this misogynistic vision of transdom. But I don't accept that. And I make no apologies for being angry at people who deserve it.

Sophie said...

@ Aria.
The last time you seized on an explanation for transsexual birth condition was to support the notion that it was all a fault in the neural map so the place which corresponded to the penis was defective.
If that's your idea of womanhood, I'd prefer the most lurid imaginings of a crossdresser.
You maintain in the teeth of evidence that there's no such thing as a non op that isn't a fetishistic crossdresser. In doing so you place yourself at the left hand of every surgeon that ever butchered an intersex infant. You allot identity status to surgical choice and in so doing have blood on your hands for every confused person you manage to influence. Even someone like Courtney backs away from that extreme an ethical sink.
As to the status you so obviously covet, perhaps the one you've attained is the one you're after....Ms Phelps.

Elizabeth said...

Aria blue,

I would not expect you to play nice because based on just these two comments it is not in your nature to be anything but judgmental, bitter, angry and elitist and it has nothing to do with some perceived transgender problem that may or may not exist.

You live in a world of black and white and by moderating negative comments about your posts and thus limiting discussion you most certainly are forming your own little group of sycophants that form a group of like minded and like thinking minions who are required to think like you, have the same values as you, and of course praise you.

I was raised to believe in open discussion and debate but then I guess you would consider me an elitist and privileged child and would have dismissed me as a fraud. Isn't it ironic that the people you claim to be frauds disagree with you?

Disagreeing with you is not a personal attack. I have no idea where you were educated but disagreement is not a personal attack and calling someone an intellectual coward because they refuse to allow open debate of their controversial views is a statement of fact.

I have followed your blog since Lena pointed me to it and I have read everything you have posted and the comments. I have no proof of it but I have been told you have actually deleted comments because they disagreed with you yet contained no derogatory language.

The only derogatory comments I read came from you and your minions and were directed at others but then you do delete what you want posted. I can assure you that will not happen here.

By the way if you did not give a crap about what most people think about you then why do you delete posts? That is contrary to that claim isn't it?

I cannot recall what Lena posted but in her case I can assure you she under told her story and I know because I am the person that paid her way through NYU and to Columbia and a PhD just so you get the facts ma'am.

I have known very few long term women born transsexual that are not very happy in their later years and I would assume to someone who appears as bitter, angry, and disappointed in their own life, like you, the simple fact someone is happy must feel like a slap in the face but then most of us "old timers" had to work so hard to just survive that working to succeed in life was easy.

By the way the only stupid and outright bigoted comments I have read on your blog came from and continue to come from you and your minions.


Your definition of what a True Transsexual is and your self portrait as both a True and Primary Transsexual do confuse me. Are you a Transsexual or are you a woman? It would seem to me you are more of the former than the later which means you have never been able to let go of the fact you were born transsexual which does assume you have had surgery which I believe you have completed.

I admit my bias here but I believe deeply that the only paper, book, or study that was ever published that was unbiased is the one in Harry Benjamin's book. There is no finite nor definitive definition of what is transsexual but just a set of types that may or may not be blurred by an individual transsexual. A type IV may meet part of Type V and a Type V may have characteristics of a Type VI.

Elizabeth said...

Unlike you I believe in gray areas and I recognize that since my life does not revolve around transsexual issues I certainly do not have all the answers and whether you want to believe it or not neither do you.

In your world anyone that does not agree with you is labeled a fraud, a phony, or a cross-dresser or worse.

I actually find Sandeen foolish and miserably uninformed and in many ways just a self-promoting blowhard sort of like you in many ways. She is right and everyone else is wrong. You should be very familiar with that.

Whenever you want to trash her you allow one of her posts to get through. Since I lived through the times her last post covered I could point out a number of flaws and incorrect comments and assumptions but you and your minions are so intent on demeaning her you forget to refute what she posts which actually demeans you and not her. I believe even a fool has a right to their opinion misguided or not.

What you and your minions fail to realize is some transsexuals are truly caught in the middle between life and self. I cannot imagine that level of discomfort but it is there and it does happen. I have a friend who has never had surgery out of fear caused by physical issues and she is more transsexual than you ever were because she is a kind, caring, loving, and decent woman that has dedicated her life to helping children regardless of what "kind" of trans person they are.

You do base your beliefs almost entirely on the Person-Ovesey study and one can go to your blog and read your opinions there. Your claims of being a "primary" transsexual are based on definition of "primary" in the study. You claim that subsequent changes to the term primary were a concerted effort by the transgender community to re-define what primary was.

Essentially what Person and Ovesey did was flip what Benjamin described as Type VI and Type V. They used the term Primary because Type V Benjamin transsexuals are the largest subset of the Transsexual set as defined by Benjamin. In other words the largest number of transsexuals are low libido, asexual or auto-erotic, and are basically heterosexual men and were defined as being driven to be women ONLY because they may have done it late in life.

Benjamin thought the study was a misrepresentation of his understanding and knowledge of who and what transsexualism actually was and is. If you have read "The Transsexual Phenomenon" you would understand patients often blurred the lines between what was and wasn't a specific type or category and that Dr. Benjamin believed transvestism was a very mild form of transsexualism.

I will always defer to Benjamin and his understanding of us than others out to prove a specific point such as Person and Ovesey.

I guess I would like to know what expertise of yours allows you to know who is and who isn't transsexual which I find an interesting obsession by the way.

I totally agree this is a medical issue which Benjamin also believed thus it baffles me why you put so much weight behind Person & Ovesey who looked at transsexualism as a mental condition as they did the homosexual condition and were trying to link the two conditions as mental disorders.

As for Sandeen cynically using the problems of others to raise themselves up are you any different? You use your perceived correctness to raise yourself up and give yourself a feeling of self-importance because you are fighting the good fight against all the evil threatening your definition of yourself and your self-perceived understanding of the transsexual condition and this makes you better than others who fail to fight the good fight but of course they must fight the good fight based on your myopic belief system and flawed self importance.

Elizabeth said...

Sandeen cannot deny me my womanhood. She cannot take anything away from me I do not let her take away from me and neither can you. The only difference between you and Sandeen is terminology and position.

I am not nor have I ever been a transsexual woman. I am a woman that was born transsexual and I feel sorry for you if you believe you are a transsexual woman since that is self demeaning if you are post surgical.

Don't make yourself feel important Aria because like most of your ilk your self importance is almost as large as your inflated ego and I spend no time running you down because if anyone reads your blog it is quite obvious you do such a good job making a fool of yourself that any effort on my part to help you in that endeavor is wasted.

I do get irritated by misrepresentation of facts but I do not think there is sexism and outright hatred of women in the trans community. There may be some with such feelings but they are a distinct minority like you are. Most transsexuals just want to do what is best for themselves and somehow make it to some point in life where they can be happy with themselves and lead a productive life. Basically they like most people want to survive the human condition best they can without some lunatic fringe telling them how to believe and live their lives.

The trans community is not dissimilar to the world community. There are loons like you on one side and loons like Sandeen on the other side and everyone in the middle sits there and just wants to get on with their lives without interference and try and be decent members of whatever gender they chose. I may not like some things and some positions and some views but everyone including the loons has a right to them but being a coward and not allowing those that disagree with ones views to express those disagreements is typical of those who want total obedience and adherence to their views because after all they "know" what is right for everyone.

So now I am the problem. Well I will admit I have been called a pain in the ass by more than a few because I prefer to discuss ideas and concepts like an adult with open discourse which irritates the know-it-all like you primarily because I do not know-it-all and admit it.

I express my opinions and some are unpopular but I have found that open discussion has a better chance of understanding than a "fight" that involves loons on both sides of it screaming they are right and every one else is wrong.

You must have a difficult life. Anger, bitterness, hatred, and an inflated self importance coupled with an inflated ego doesn't leave much time to enjoy life but then maybe being a "transsexual woman" is your life which might even be a bigger pity.

A little clue Aria. Both of us are just pimples on life's ass and we are safe only as long as we don't get popped. Unfortunately you think you are a boil.

Do yourself a favor and if you have a significant other do them a bigger favor and just lighten up a little and maybe take a vacation and have some sex if you are not still asexual and enjoy a sunset and live a little because if you don't life will pass you by and you may actually end up the bitter old maid you come across as.

Anne said...

oooooooh,OOOOOWWW!

That had to hurt. IMO, however, that is a good thing. As much as you might refuse to acknowledge this, what Elizabeth has kindly taken the time to do, is put you, in your place. This is also a good thing, not only for you Aria, but for your readers. You see, sweet thing, you are now in the REAL world, and running with the big dogs. I admire you for having the courage to come and join in.

Incientally, the water is just fine. You now have the opportunity to test your mettle and your theories against those of REAL people that do not have an AX to grind. You have a great opportunity to grow and maybe even learn a thing or two.

Here is a news flash for ya. Having EARNED the privilege of "having made it", (define that as you wish, but for me it amounts to a comfortable life in retirement, with a loving man at my side and in my bed), by virtue of hard work and perserverance, I can assure you that I am quite real and NOT a troll. I mean, why claim to be 63 and retired, when I could just as easiy claim to be a 33 y/o retired rock star or computer wonk, or a poor, mistreated, "gurl"?

Further, as Liz has pointed out, your very hostile and vituperative assaults on my integrity, in your poorly veiled efforts to discredit me and my positions by attacking not just my character but my actual validity, only serve to highlight your own personal insecurity.

Look, as I have tried to tell you time and time aqain, I agree with a great deal of what you espouse. However, you ARE wrong on more than a couple of things, and as an adult, you should be willing to look at those things from the point of view of someone who has actually BEEN THERE.

In agreement with not just Elizabeth, but many others whom, like me you have tossed off blog, I should point out that your most glaring impediment to your 'mission', as well as your personal happiness, IS YOUR ANGER.

You really would be better served if you would just take the time to smell the roses...before they are all gone.

Elizabeth said...

@Anne

She twittered all her friends that I wanted traffic on this blog site yesterday. I welcome any of their comments. I wonder if they need pre-approval from Aria Blue?

I doubt I will ever receive another comment from her but I would welcome a comment because I actually agree with some of her points but the requirement for 100% obedience just reeks of "cult" to my sensibilities.

Sophie said...

But of course Aria has such a unique blog, and such an individual group of people commenting.
I mean simply that, along with the 'usual suspects' there also tend to be at least a couple of people that never comment elsewhere, as well as the passing voices of 'old friends' who seem to share that reticence. Their chorus of agreement with Aria's words is something truly rare in the trans blogosphere.
No doubt their shyness in springing to her defence on other blogs couldn't possibly have to do with IP address problems, and that Aria's concerns about sock puppets have nothing to do with any personal knowledge of such creatures.

Elizabeth said...

@Sophie,

Actually I am not sure what you are actually saying but my point is simple. She was incorrect on a specific point of reference and I know because I was part of the process and she is an intellectual coward because she is unwilling to accept criticism or allow dissenting opinions about her positions. That is a simple fact.

If one dissents then one is a "sock puppet" or some other derogatory insult. It becomes more than coincidence when she moderates and deletes posts from dissenters and allows posts by her sycophants and anyone that disagrees or any post that disagrees with her is removed.

Aria has a unique and very interesting blog but to claim the high road of correctness as she continually does without allowing those dissenting to express their views and she becomes just another gutless loudmouth expert know-it-all without the courage of her convictions.

I have learned over the years that those who scream longest and loudest in protest of certain subjects are quite often trying to hide the fact they are in fact what they are complaining about and cannot face it.

I actually agree with many of her positions as do others but failure to adhere completely open dialog is just an excuse not to answer questions asked of her.

Sandeen is allowed to post occasionally if Aria wants to make fun of her but that is it.

Anne said...

My guess is that she will compose some sorry "woe is me" rant on her blog about how we "elitist dinosaurs" are picking on her by virtue of our "privelege". I would not be surprised to see her make another "raid" over here, but I doubt if there will be much of substance though, contained in all her hateful rhetoric.

And that for me is the rub with Aria. She has such a way with words that if she would just take the time to objectively try to understand, she could be a powerful ally. Unfortunately, despite her loud and persistent accusations about others wanting to "lead some personal popularity contest" or be "top dog", I fear that she is in fact the one so concerned.

Like you, I would welcome her commentary, if only she could just "woman up" and deal with dissent and disagreements like an adult.

Anne said...

I posted this short comment as test...

annierose55 says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

October 22, 2010 at 3:35 am
Why not post your positions on those other blogs that you so obviously despise, instead of just, “preachin’ to the choir"?

radicalbitch said...

Minions? Are you all including me in that? What a sad little bunch here.

Elizabeth said...

Are you one of the sycophants that agrees with everything Aria posts? If yes then I guess so and as for the sad little bunch here at least I am not afraid to allow disagreement and open discussion.

Why don't you ask you pal Aria why she blocks posts? Oh wait a second it is because anyone that disagrees with the royal highness Aria is a sock puppet, an elitist, or sundry other derogatory names.

If you have an opinion post it and we can discuss it. If not go home to you master and tell her you defended the honor or better yet the dishonor of her intellectual cowardice. By the way aren't you catkisser?

By the way did you notice how easy it was to post here?

lisalee18wheeler said...

It's easy to post comments at many blogs; others are moderated. You allow all comments, I allow the relevant ones. If your purpose in commenting on my blog is to denigrate or belittle me, I'll delete your comment and let you know why.

I can't speak for other blogs, including Aria's. I certainly don't agree with everything she writes, and when it comes to politics and religion, we're probably diametrically opposites. But I do agree with and stand beside her when it comes to her views on ts vs. tg and why the two should be separate.

And in all fairness to Aria, maybe you should go back several months and read all the comments left for several of the essays. You'll see that Anne was allowed free rein to comment to her heart's content, both agreeing and dissenting.

As far as being a "minion" or "sycophant", you couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh, by the way, maybe you should ask Anne why she's been put on moderation over at TS-SI.org?

:-)

Sophie said...

Sorry to be unclear.
The point is that Aria's blog is distinctive in a number of ways.
The overall tone is self congratulatory, contending voices are banned, she says she is trolled and sock puppeted constantly. Given her readiness to descend into abuse when contradicted or shown she's mistaken on other blogs, maybe one should be grateful for such mercies.
I suppose it's rather paranoid a policy too, but maybe that's somewhat justified amidst the reefs and shoals of the trans blogosphere.
But there's another thing about the kind of comments she gets. Sure , there's the coterie that generally choir agreement, though some now seem a bit dissociated from her.
But there are also others who seem to fill a commenting void, generally agreeing, very congratulatory of her personally and given, like her, to writing endless screeds to cover a lack of cogency. Usually there are two of them and usually from non US regions. Then there are other voices from time to time from various respectful old transsexual friends that impart a certain credibility.
And, frankly, I find this quite extraordinary. I mean where can one find similar voices to these, people willing to regularly write these cloyingly congratulatory comments with only the mildest of qualified divergence from the revealed truth ? Can't speak for everyone but I've never seen such copious outpourings of agreement on other blogs and sadly lack such myself. They help to give Aria a lot of credibility but hardly, if ever, comment elsewhere. She's not real friendly to them often, helping the impression of independent voices. And given her obvious policy of not allowing dissent there's no surprise at them getting through.
Now sock puppets - secondary internet identities, alts - are often used to deceive some blogger as to the real identity of the commenter, thus Aria's voiced worries about them. But they're also used to foster debates and to 'drive traffic' when used by the blogger herself because blogs with lots of conversational comments attract readers on the principle of crowds gathering crowds. Of course unless you go to the hassle of different IP addresses its better that such voices don't comment elsewhere when they might be scrutinised.
I suppose it was partly because I do feel that 'performance identity' is somewhat different to that of transsexuality that I started reading Aria's blog a year or so ago, though without great expectations of finding much cogency. For me the history of voices between then and now follow much the same pattern. It's not just that Aria discourages dissent but that she creates assent.
Anyone else and I'd find this need for an echo chamber rather sad. But Aria ? A would-be empress strutting her lack of clothes before the world ? Hardly.
@ Lisalee. Anne never really dissented on doctrinal grounds, the disagreements were personal. Aria lets through established bloggers' dissent, that bolster her traffic and serve as a target for group abuse ; others get short shrift. I wouldn't call you minions. Hanging together when you're part of an extreme fringe is only too rational a strategy.

Elizabeth said...

@lisalee18wheeler

I have read every post on her blog and have viewed all the comments. Moderation of blogs is a right but when it is used to prevent contrary opinion it is intellectual cowardice.

If you are posting an opinion take the heat from the opposition or simply make your blog a members only blog which is essentially what Aria has done.

I actually agree with a lot of what she has posted but her comments about Person-Ovesey and Harry Benjamin are just plain misinformed and inaccurate.

You are welcome to post here and because someone is moderated elsewhere does not mean they should be moderated here and TS-SI does not govern what I do. If the language is bad I will moderate it or edit out the bad language but that is it.

Liz

Sophie said...

Sorry to be unclear.
The point is that Aria's blog is distinctive in a number of ways.
The overall tone is self congratulatory, contending voices are banned, she says she is trolled and sock puppeted constantly. Given her readiness to descend into abuse when contradicted or shown she's mistaken on other blogs, maybe one should be grateful for such mercies.
I suppose it's rather paranoid a policy too, but maybe that's somewhat justified amidst the reefs and shoals of the trans blogosphere.
But there's another thing about the kind of comments she gets. Sure , there's the coterie that generally choir agreement, though some now seem a bit dissociated from her.
But there are also others who seem to fill a commenting void, generally agreeing, very congratulatory of her personally and given, like her, to writing endless screeds to cover a lack of cogency. Usually there are two of them and usually from non US regions. Then there are other voices from time to time from various respectful old transsexual friends that impart a certain credibility.
And, frankly, I find this quite extraordinary. I mean where can one find similar voices to these, people willing to regularly write these cloyingly congratulatory comments with only the mildest of qualified divergence from the revealed truth ? Can't speak for everyone but I've never seen such copious outpourings of agreement on other blogs and sadly lack such myself. They help to give Aria a lot of credibility but hardly, if ever, comment elsewhere. She's not real friendly to them often, helping the impression of independent voices. And given her obvious policy of not allowing dissent there's no surprise at them getting through.
Now sock puppets - secondary internet identities, alts - are often used to deceive some blogger as to the real identity of the commenter, thus Aria's voiced worries about them. But they're also used to foster debates and to 'drive traffic' when used by the blogger herself because blogs with lots of conversational comments attract readers on the principle of crowds gathering crowds. Of course unless you go to the hassle of different IP addresses its better that such voices don't comment elsewhere when they might be scrutinised.
I suppose it was partly because I do feel that 'performance identity' is somewhat different to that of transsexuality that I started reading Aria's blog a year or so ago, though without great expectations of finding much cogency. For me the history of voices between then and now follow much the same pattern. It's not just that Aria discourages dissent but that she creates assent.
Anyone else and I'd find this need for an echo chamber rather sad. But Aria ? A would-be empress strutting her lack of clothes before the world ? Hardly.

Sophie said...

Sorry to be unclear.
The point is that Aria's blog is distinctive in a number of ways.
The overall tone is self congratulatory, contending voices are banned, she says she is trolled and sock puppeted constantly. Given her readiness to descend into abuse when contradicted or shown she's mistaken on other blogs, maybe one should be grateful for such mercies.
I suppose it's rather paranoid a policy too, but maybe that's somewhat justified amidst the reefs and shoals of the trans blogosphere.
But there's another thing about the kind of comments she gets. Sure , there's the coterie that generally choir agreement, though some now seem a bit dissociated from her.
But there are also others who seem to fill a commenting void, generally agreeing, very congratulatory of her personally and given, like her, to writing endless screeds to cover a lack of cogency. Usually there are two of them and usually from non US regions. Then there are other voices from time to time from various respectful old transsexual friends that impart a certain credibility.
And, frankly, I find this quite extraordinary. I mean where can one find similar voices to these, people willing to regularly write these cloyingly congratulatory comments with only the mildest of qualified divergence from the revealed truth ? Can't speak for everyone but I've never seen such copious outpourings of agreement on other blogs and sadly lack such myself. They help to give Aria a lot of credibility but hardly, if ever, comment elsewhere. She's not real friendly to them often, helping the impression of independent voices. And given her obvious policy of not allowing dissent there's no surprise at them getting through.
Now sock puppets - secondary internet identities, alts - are often used to deceive some blogger as to the real identity of the commenter, thus Aria's voiced worries about them. But they're also used to foster debates and to 'drive traffic' when used by the blogger herself because blogs with lots of conversational comments attract readers on the principle of crowds gathering crowds. Of course unless you go to the hassle of different IP addresses its better that such voices don't comment elsewhere when they might be scrutinised.

Anne said...

Actually, I am NOT being moderated over at Ts-Si. I did anger Sharon when I openly posted a rather pointed email that I had sent directly to her via her posted email address.

I think perhaps that the post on the open forum might have either embarassed, (unintentially, on my part) her, or caused some discomfort within the ranks over at TS-SI.

As most of you should know, I AM NOT VERY GOOD at mincing words. Suzan Cooke was openly threatening an attempt to physically (3-D)identify and OUT me.

I cried foul and Sharon immediately shut down the dispute by deleting my comment. I have the note to Sharon and I may post it at some time in the future on my blog, but for the moment, I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

Now, it seems to me that the question raised by Elizabeth in this post is wherein lies Aria's authority to identify who may or may not be, (or MAY have been) a True Transsexual. The caveat would be whether or not Aria has the intestinal fortitude, or the FACTS, to substantiate her position.

Elizabeth said...

@Sophie,

Thank you for the clarification.

Leigh said...

I am not a minnion and I was one of those that not long ago turned away from posting at aria's blog because of what appeared to me to be censorship and an attempt to brand anyone not in aggreance as sockpuppets and shameless bragards of their accomplishments.

I believe that any of us that succeed despite having been saddled with transsexualism should be proud of their accomplishments. For sure, too many fall in the ditch and are left there clawing at the dirt for whatever is thrown their way, but the flip side is that as the old saying goes; you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

In aria's defence I find her writings to be informative and hard hitting, based on her truth whatever that may be, but most of all she takes a stand, one that needs to be taken, one that is not popular, one that will likely earn her a reputation as an elitist, a blowhard as elizabeth calls it.

I have been around this stuff a long time and while it's true that the likes of Sandeen and co., do not define me, that is hardly the point. Sandeen is a propogandist with a platform and a bullhorn. Sandeen is heard while others are not. That makes Sandeen dangerous, for while its true that sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me; history teaches us that it is the name calling and the blatent misinformation that when allowed to fester among the minds of others, leads to the sticks and stones that ultimately follow.

Aria's blog is a tiny island in a sea of transgender dogma, and we should find harbor there, lest we all end up branded and assimilated into a false truth, founded on lies and calculated misinformation about what it is to be transsexual.

Elizabeth said...

@Leigh,

In general I agree with a lot of what she says but I take exception to comments, allegations, and claims that range from pure misinformation to outright lies which makes Aria Sandeen light at her best and in some instances worse than Sandeen.

I have little use for either but they are both welcome to post here. If someone restricts access and censors what is read or permitted then they are trying to hide something and in my experiences as a researcher in other areas it usually is lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to control the message of which Aria is guilty of both and more.

SO you are saying we should find harbor on a blog that controls who can post, pushes misinformation and incorrect theories, labels any dissenters sock puppets or worse, promotes hate, claims to not be homophobic but is, claims Harry Benjamin caused the transgender issues she so courageously fights, supports Person-Ovesey as her definition of transsexualism, and deliberately skews the results of the Walinder study to fit her myopic view of the world?

Is that about right? A loon and a paranoid delusional fool is not someone any rational person should follow. Give people the facts and point out the issues and make your opinions known but accept criticism because nothing is black or white in the world of the transsexual as there are no two transsexuals the same.

Like I said before the only difference between Sandeen and Aria is message and position. The sad part is both think they are important and they are not and neither am I.

If you asked 1000 people on the street who Sandeen is NOBODY would know and nobody cares. Are there problems with some of the transgender dogma? Damn skippy there is but acting like an adult with open lines of communication and dialog has a better chance of changing minds than the Aria Dogma which in many ways is as reprehensible as some of the transgender dogma.

Your last paragraph accurately describes your friend Aria. You might want to rephrase that.

Leigh said...

you said > " Is that about right? A loon and a paranoid delusional fool is not someone any rational person should follow"

Well first of all I never said anything about following. Thats for the individual reading her stuff to decide on. Personally I don't follow anyone but others readily do.

Aria is not the ultimate voice in all of this, personally I prefer Susan's (sa-et) take on things probably because I know her personally wheras I do not know aria personally. Flip side though, I'ts a thankless job and aria at very least puts up a reasonable argument which is better than a watered down, politically correct, lets try to see the other side of the coin viewpoint, of which is at this point a waste of time.

You have an axe to grind with aria.. it's your axe and your welcome to it. I am sure you have your reasons, but yes I am past the point of caring about hurting the feelings of the tranny activists that speak for me as though they know whats best for me.

So you accuse her of being racist and homophobic and hateful and what not, well your not the first, heck they accuse me of the same thing and when it comes to tranny activists like roberts and sandeen, I plead guilty as charged. When they quit speaking for me, when they quit associating my existence with their homosexual movements, when they quit calling me WWBT (roberts), when they quit playing around with gender like it's all a big game, then perhaps I will return to a position I held long ago which is to live and let live.

There is a world of difference between Aria and Sandeen. Of course it's the message ... of course! That is the whole point isnt it ?

Elizabeth said...

@Leigh

Follow was a poor choice of a word and I do apologize if that bothered you.

The only axe I have to grind with Aria is her continued positioning of the Person-Ovesey study as the gospel for what defines transsexual and her blatant lies and misinformation about Harry Benjamin and her ability to misrepresent what someone like Walinder actually found in his final results to fit her perfect version of her transsexual self.

I am confused about the comments concerning associating your existence with their homosexual movements. If that is in reference to the Transgender part of GLBT then I can understand the discomfort.

Yes I did accuse her of being homophobic and hateful but she is also a liar and a purveyor of misinformation.

Again I am confused by you. If you are now a woman then nothing they can say can define you or redefine you but I get the impression you are stuck being transsexual as Aria is.

What amuses me about Aria and her ilk is you never answer the questions about her misinformation and lies.

Is she correct about person-Ovesey? No

Is she correct about Harry Benjamin? No

Is she correct about the conclusions Walinder came to? No

Defend those positions because if you defend her you defend them.

By the way I do not agree with playing around with gender and have posted that opinion on here but unlike Aria anyone can take me to task if they please.

When was the last time you were allowed to speak your mind on Aria's blog??

If Aria's message is made up of lies and misinformation then she is no better than Sandeen and it is as simple as that. A fool by the name Sandeen or Aria is still a fool regardless of message or postion when the message is made up of lies and misinformation.

Leigh said...

sigh!

Why must you immediatly jump to a conclusion that someone is stuck being a transsexual just because they recognise the existence of people that would re-define transsexual to cover everyone that ever experimented with their sisters clothes, to someone that was born intersexed?

Let me spell it out for you, although I am sure you already know this....

WHAT THEY DO AFFECTS WHAT YOU ARE BY DEFINITION OF WHERE YOU CAME FROM ...

Case in point: Nikki Araguz:
Is she stuck being a transsexual insted of the woman she is by the existance of people like Sandeen?

I would argue yes because even though she may not consider herself as any less a woman by the existence of such people, she is legally now tied to the result of their activism and the unwanted attention to our lives which attempts to color us with the same transgender brush.

So while nothing they say on a personal/private level will ever define me or redfine me, activism that targets a class of people under law, or activism that causes the general public to assume that all transsexuals are nothing more than gay men, gone to the extreem of surgery can and often will define or redefine what you are LEGALLY AND SOCIALLY considered.

If you do not understand or agree with that concept then we have nothing further to discuss, because Sandeen doesn't get it either..... and never will.

And before you rush to judgement about me you might want to consider that I have been post corrected some 30 years now, am successful in my professional life, married to my man, and integrate well into society.

*********
Person-Ovesey-Benjamin-Wallinder

I don't know about you and aria but I really dont have the time or the will to go researching transsexuality to death. I have far more important things to do than read up on what this or that so called expert has to say.

Therefore I have nothing to say or add on that subject. I will leave you and others to argue the merits of the academics.

I rarely post on aria's blog anymore but I do read it. I am not defending her positions on these subjects as I have no viewpoint on them. To put it bluntly I could care less what the academia has to say.

And yes I have spoken my mind on Aria's blog.

Leigh said...

sigh!

Why must you immediatly jump to a conclusion that someone is stuck being a transsexual just because they recognise the existence of people that would re-define transsexual to cover everyone that ever experimented with their sisters clothes, to someone that was born intersexed?

Let me spell it out for you, although I am sure you already know this....

WHAT THEY DO AFFECTS WHAT YOU ARE BY DEFINITION OF WHERE YOU CAME FROM ...

Case in point: Nikki Araguz:
Is she stuck being a transsexual insted of the woman she is by the existance of people like Sandeen?

I would argue yes because even though she may not consider herself as any less a woman by the existence of such people, she is legally now tied to the result of their activism and the unwanted attention to our lives which attempts to color us with the same transgender brush.

So while nothing they say on a personal/private level will ever define me or redfine me, activism that targets a class of people under law, or activism that causes the general public to assume that all transsexuals are nothing more than gay men, gone to the extreem of surgery can and often will define or redefine what you are LEGALLY AND SOCIALLY considered.

If you do not understand or agree with that concept then we have nothing further to discuss, because Sandeen doesn't get it either..... and never will.

And before you rush to judgement about me you might want to consider that I have been post corrected some 30 years now, am successful in my professional life, married to my man, and integrate well into society.

*********
Person-Ovesey-Benjamin-Wallinder

I don't know about you and aria but I really dont have the time or the will to go researching transsexuality to death. I have far more important things to do than read up on what this or that so called expert has to say.

Therefore I have nothing to say or add on that subject. I will leave you and others to argue the merits of the academics.

I rarely post on aria's blog anymore but I do read it. I am not defending her positions on these subjects as I have no viewpoint on them. To put it bluntly I could care less what the academia has to say.

And yes I have spoken my mind on Aria's blog.

Elizabeth said...

@Leigh

If Aria doesn't want to be judged that way then she should change her tenor on her blog. She sure as all heck judges everyone she disagrees with on her blog with her refrain "Are you a woman or not" yet she posts here she is a transsexual woman. That sounds like she is confused.

As for Nikki Araguz I am not sure anyone knows the truth behind that case and will not until it plays out in court.

If Aria would stick with issues involving the broad brush some in the transgender community want to paint with I would support her but she doesn't. Sandeen is an idiot and you give her and the other loons too much credit.

Aria promotes the idea that some transsexuals were gay men herself. That issue is just a scare tactic and rates up there with the flat earth society and has long since been debunked and has nothing to do with social or legal standing for transsexuals or women born transsexual or just plain women with a past issue.

There are issues that bother me such as birth certificate changes for non-ops and all the gender benders wanting the same rights as transsexuals but she is incapable of staying on point without going into some hateful rant and trashing and deleting posts by anyone that questions anything she writes. She can do it but she is a coward for doing it.

Aria brought up Person-Ovesey and her insane comments about Benjamin and her misrepresentation of the results of the Walinder study. The facts mean nothing to her.

I am not rushing to judgment about you and I looked on Aria's blog and could not find any comments by you that criticized her post or asked her a tough question. If I missed it please point me at it.

Good for you and 30 years.

Elizabeth said...

@lisalee18wheeler posted on Aria's blog:

Thought I’d leave a Lisa-bomb over at that blog. Anne is gonna have some ‘splainin to do… ;-)

***************************

Wow lisalee that was some bomb you left. Did you get a pat on the head and a dog bone from Aria for being so dutiful??

That is so pathetic.

lisalee18wheeler said...

It got the response I was looking for and to answer your question, no.

:-)

Elizabeth said...

@lisalee18wheeler

Sweetie I have no beef with you. I just want Aria to recognize she is wrong about Person-Ovesey and Benjamin but martyrs always find it difficult to admit they are wrong and she is wrong based simply on the facts and the next time Aria worries about the facts might be a first.

She never answers questions. She always turns it to question the people questioning her because they refuse to agree with her opinion.

Do you own the 18 wheeler or do you just drive it?

Espejos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Espejos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Elizabeth said...

@Espejos

Most people just want to be happy in their own lives. I get the distinct feeling, without any proof whatsoever, that Aria is a very miserable person.

She thinks she is more important than she really is and so do most of her followers.

My life has been pretty good but like most women I have had my ups and downs and have taken the good with the bad. A bad marriage and a dream marriage. I don't have a great track record picking men.

Nobody can redefine me because I am what I should have been born and have traveled in the real world as a woman. I have set precedents for women not for transsexuals because I never wanted to be a transsexual. I just wanted to be operated on so I could be the complete woman I always was in my heart.

Too many people like Aria just cannot get over their transsexual past. She can claim otherwise but her actions say something else.

Life is what you make of it not what others say you should be.

Espejos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HappyJB said...

Oh look, the entire CT gang is here. The hilarity of Aria claiming to block sockpuppets is that she herself is a sockpuppet. The ultimate sockpuppet really.

As are a number of her intersexed friends . Oh did I say "intersexed". Oh my god, I let slip that this is really just an extension of disgruntled few intersexed extremists out to raise themselves up by being destructive towards transgenders. Oh don't worry, you will never see the face of the "True" or "Classic" transsexual because then it would all end rather quickly.