Believe it or not I actually spend little time on this blog or much of anything related to the issues discussed and argued on here. It has really never been that important to me and in some ways that was and is a fault of mine. Some of us old timers have tried to give back as best we can while maintaining as much anonymity as possible. Some of us are so stealth few people know who we are and others, I am one of these, have people who know the truth about their past who remain supportive, loving, and most importantly quiet. Most of that has to do with the early stages in our lives when we transitioned.
Almost everyone I know that was born transsexual is either an old timer from my era or the 10 or so kids I was involved in helping over the decades. We always provided the financial aid to the children and let some very competent professionals help them but we did keep our eye on how the kids did. We are involved from a distance but we are involved because we have lived what they are living and sometimes we are the only ones that have an answer to a particular question. Most of those happen to involve boys. Funny how that works.
It is rather an odd experience to interview a therapist about whether they are competent or more importantly qualified to handle a very intense Type VI child transsexual. Most of the ones my friend and I have interviewed failed miserably because they did not understand the differences between these children and every other trans person they treated. I even had one tell me all trans people were the same which is a total fallacy. Finding the therapist has been the singularly most difficult problem we have had.
The other issue is hormones and we absolutely do not follow the SOC when it comes to hormones. All of the kids are on blockers and estrogen very early, before puberty hopefully, and we have the results to prove the correctness of the methodology. All have surgery by 18 and hopefully the two now can have surgery at 16. It just makes life easier and besides going to University as a girl is just plain a lot of fun.
Between the few friends I have online and actually do know on a personal basis, yes I do by the way, my old friends from NYC, and the kids we have helped I have known about 16-20 Type VI transsexuals before and after correction which falls in line with the rarity of that condition. In my time a Type VI could make it into their 30's and survive but they usually were indulging in booze or drugs to dull the pain until they found a way out. All of us fought our entire early lives to be the girls we should have been born and there was a driving force behind that which might surprise all of you.
I will qualify what I am about to say by stating I actually do know of one person, Anna, in England that was a Type VI and lesbian but she is the only one, initially she liked boys. I have actually never met a Type VI that married but it might have happened in the 50's and 60's. All but two of the Type VI transsexuals Harry met before he published his book were in their late teens or twenties and they were his toughest cases and he lost more than a few. I was the second teenager he had met but in the 60's he began to care for a lot more as the kids started finding him in NYC and San Francisco.He was our savior and often took major personal risks to supply us with the scripts needed to get hormones.
I will reiterate my belief that being Type VI is not a better type of transsexual but a different type of transsexual from all the others. In many ways it is so far worse it is debilitating with a much higher chance one might not survive and that is still true today. There is a reason for this and it is psycho-sexual inversion which means the transsexual is actually convinced they are a girl and believes they are a girl and that inner turmoil leads to serious and potentially deadly consequences for the children because universally all Type VI transsexuals are so intensely transsexual there is little chance they will not seriously push boundaries.
One can see that with Kim Petras and other new age Type VI girls born transsexual. We all fight to be girls and in many cases take the kind of chances that cause trouble or bring trouble right into our life. Even in my time those kids like me that were street smart found ways to get hormones early. My best friend Lena was on hormones at 12 in Spanish Harlem. Another friend was on hormones by 15 when she ran from her abusive home in the Midwest and initially sold herself in the sex trades. We did what we had to do to survive. I was the lucky one since I had a mother's support and found Benjamin early on but the confusion and pain caused multiple suicide attempts before I met Harry.
The turning point for every Type VI I have know over the years is the moment we realize how attracted we are to boys. The key here is we are attracted to boys only if we are a girl which might be confusing to some but unless one was turning tricks to survive we never, I mean never, tried to attract boys. It was and is what drove us and drives the kids today toward surgery and transition at as early an age as possible. We need to be girls so boys will like us and not a one of us could initially conceive the idea a boy could like as as a girl before surgery.
I pushed every single boundary I could as a child and if someone had asked me then why I did what I did I would not have had an answer other than I "need" to be the girl I should have been born. No beating by parents or relatives or boys could sway us from what we wanted even before most of us knew we could have a surgery that at least allowed us to function as girls. For us the surgery was the end all and be all of our very existence. It was never a decision to have surgery as many claim today. It was a need that drove us almost insane. We all felt the same way. How can a boy love me if I am not a "real" girl and by "real" that meant we were equipped with a functioning vagina.
If any of you have read Benjamen's book the one comment under Type VI that should have struck like a lightening bolt was the intense desire to have sex with a boy as a girl. We all had that most primal of desires that most women have. We needed to be able to mate with a male and that was a straight male by the way. Many of us stupidly thought we could have children because personally I was clueless until I met Harry. Silly? Not really when one considers we all believed we were already girls. I would have preferred death over being a male in a relationship and I have met few that had sex with women that I would identify as Type VI but the few I do know somehow functioned but never truly understood how. If you are truly a girl in your very soul using that thing on another girl is as alien as it gets. Well, at least it was to us.
The boyfriends I had before my surgery pursued me and I was reticent and in all cases actually ignored obvious hints they liked me as a girl. I admit I didn't do boy well but they all knew anatomically L was male but for some reason all thought of me as a girl. I know some will say that is bullshit but it is true. My first boyfriend, Kevin, was one of the loves of my life yet we never had the chance to make love. His mother is one of my best friends here in the Carolina and she has let me read her diary which describes the confusion her son felt towards me. I always shoot back I was more confused but in reality that boy was confused by me and somehow he got by it and accepted me as his girlfriend. I have shared some of what was said by Kevin to his mother with a friend and it was eerily similar to what two boys I dated in college said to me and what someone said to me once that I fell head over heels for knowing initially nothing could ever happen.
I could never have dated any boy I thought was gay and I could never have had sex with a girl as a boy. The thought of it was disgusting. It is this dichotomy that is one of the major differences between Type VI and all other transsexuals. The other is the intensity of the dysphoria. None of us could have survived to 40. The few that survived to their 30's were quite scarred by the process of survival. It was booze or drugs that allowed them to survive and it was lack of help and the availability of help that forced them into the booze and drugs. None of them married women or had interest in women. It is a small sample set but it is a strong sample set and diverse across racial boundaries.
To those of us like this gender identity and sexual orientation are linked just like it is linked in the 90+ percent of genetic women in this world. In many ways we evolved similarly. We saw ourselves as young girls; initially we hated boys or were confused by them; we began to realize they were cute; and eventually were just sexually attracted to boys like the majority of girls are. It is really that simple and it is the major reason I will truly never understand late transitioners. What do we have in common? Very little actually.
Most if not all of us have worked our entire adult lives as women and even when we did not we were never in the boys club. I am totally assimilated into the world of women I think that is a primary reason I am disturbed by the late transitioner. It just seems to me they are men that were successful men now wanting to join the girls club after they have amassed financial wealth as men and often at the expense of women. Right or wrong it is how I feel and I find it difficult to understand because I see so many that are truly not transsexual but the hard part is I also see many that are transsexual.
My problem is it just seems too convenient and I understand I am biased but I cannot put that bias aside. It is our narrative that many of you copy and copy very poorly because you never lived it yet you profess it. There was no known narrative when I met Harry or my friends and I met in NYC and others met in Frisco or New Orleans or London or anywhere back then. Our narrative was survival and our narratives were filled with desperation with some distinct similarities if we were type VI. I did have multiple friends that were clearly Type V and the differences were obvious even in the late 60's and early 70's before people began to "learn" a narrative in order to get surgery. By the 70's people deluded themselves by believing that was their narrative and fooled many people including Harry. Harry was fooled by Rene Richards and she has admitted it in her second autobiography.
I do wish there was some way for me to understand the really late transitioners. I can understand being trapped by a decision early in life and that is possible for many Type V transsexuals. The problem is even Type V's have such inner turmoil I find it hard to believe many had that turmoil when I read their blogs and narratives. It is almost like they are presenting a PowerPoint presentation for work and if there is one thing being born transsexual is not it is that.
I realize my acceptance is not important and I wish them no harm but I do wonder if they truly understand what they are getting themselves into. I read the narratives of some 50 something transitioners and I want to laugh and I have and in too many ways that is cruel. I should be sorry for that attitude but I find it hard. They spout the rhetoric but they are missing the key elements and they will just never understand what they are missing in their narrative because they did not truly live it. It makes them stick out like a red flag.
We really have nothing in common with late transitioners and for that I am glad. The children we have helped have universally been accepted as girls and then women because only the loons of the world cannot understand the mistake made when they were born. The problem arises with the late transitioners. If this is truly a medical condition, it is in my opinion, and truly a birth defect than someone needs to come up with a rational explanation why some man at 50+ has a birth defect as debilitating as transsexualism is normally yet survives. It just seems like it is just so convenient as I said earlier.
To me it appears to be just another power play by men infringing on the little space we women have. They want to fulfill some fantasy and be one of the girls and they never will be. Maybe it is that male obsession with lesbians. Men get a thrill when two women kiss passionately and maybe it is a bigger thrill if they fantasize about being one of the women.
If I ever think of something we have in common I will be surprised.
19 comments:
Miz Know-It-All certainly hopes you're not holding your breath waiting on that "surprise" Dear! She would so hate to see you turn blue! I mean it's just not a pretty color on a woman. Well at least not that particular shade!!
Sigh... So you think they steal your narrative do you? Honey you don't know from "stealin"' if you think that! They're been stealing Miz Know-It-All's and her sisters narratives since the day they put on their first frock. Twisting this way and that with glee! Their tent poles ready and waiting whilst tales of forced feminzation danced in their heads!
Sorry I do digress at times...So sure, they did, do, and will continue to look to you and your sisters and say "why I'm just like her!" (Miz Know-it-all cannot for some reason shake the image of them, all lawyerly, thumbs beneath suspenders and head snapping towards you as it is being said!) They have to point to you Honey! You and your's are the living breathing embodiment of their most sincere fantasy! Course, to Miz Know-It-All's way of thinking, That's rather akin to a lizard fancying it's self as an apple but thats another sorted tale for another day!
But for all that, apple and lizard aside, it is with us, the women like Miz Know-It-All is where they really get their stories from! While you are most certainly the fantasy given into the flesh. We are the story of how it's to be done. Their story is ours, ripped from the whole cloth and rendered into something mishapped and disgustingly ugly! For them, we are a tasty cross between Zagats and the Michelin guide with a bit of Foh anny Farmer thrown in for good measure!
There is a reason Dear the tales of theirs and ours seem so strikingly similar... Ours was that which was mimicked! You see, there is another side to having a lower intensity which I really don't think you have considered. Sure, being a V means we get to live a little longer in limbo than you before we must pull the trigger, and for sure we can and yes, we usually do make a far bigger mess of our lives than you and your's ever could. But worst of all, it means we have this odd and decidedly stupid way of wandering into the bear's den and out the wolf's lair singing la, de, da, de, da! In our version of hell, it seems one of the more interesting torments is that we must make ourselves accessible to them! Often it is from having taken them up on what seemed a kindly offering of a port in the storm whilst we figured out what the hell was going on. Why we have even been known to take sup at their tables! And all the while, as we pour out our confused and very troubled hearts, every single word we say, every move we make is noted and copied verbatim!
Yes Liz,you and yours may have provided the map, but we gave em the damned turn by turn directions!
Sorry!
No, you don't understand. I think we all get that by now. I could help you understand, but I don't think you're willing. You might find that we do indeed have in common the fact that we are both women, and that your picture of me is incorrect, but for whatever reason that would be too hard for you to accept. But as you say, I don't need your approval, and of course neither do you need mine. Nor do you need to understand me. But you write so often of how you don't understand that I have to suspect that you really would like to. I always appreciate knowing what life was like for you. Too bad it doesn't work the other way.
@Ariel,
The point is Ariel we have not a single thing in common. Not one single thing yet you think we do.
I would like you to tell me one single thing you have in common with me or others like me but that would prevent you from running around telling everyone what a perfect example of transsexualism you are. I mean staying with the wife is the easy way out isn't it?
@Miz Know-It-All
Sorry sweetie but you are dead wrong unless the part of your narrative they steal is from later in life. Every narrative that exists today came from the kids and others in my era.
I will not go into details because one can read it on their blogs but after the want-to-be a transsexual are queried they start adding the little tidbits that many of us that went before know is total bullshit because those tidbits are not very tidbit like but really the essence of what it means to be born transsexual.
Too many late transitioners made themselves transsexual and it does not work that way whether the DSM says so or not.
Miz Know-It-All is a little off base on this issue.
Elizabeth, I don't know if we have anything in common other than both being women. You'd rather continue to say "I'll never understand" than to take a chance on finding out that you're wrong.
"...running around telling everyone what a perfect example of transsexualism you are."
See? How little you know me. I would never do such a thing, not to mention that transsexualism is in my past, not my present. As for staying with my partner, we're soul mates. Our love is still strong after 30 years, and we accommodate each others needs. Would you prefer that I had dumped her? I'm quite sure I recall that being criticized even more strongly.
@Ariel,
I owe you an apology for the "running around" comment I was told that and have no basis or proof myself so I apologize.
As for your wife since you had no children I would wonder why you did not transition earlier and give her a chance at a life with a normal man. That may be harsh but it is how I feel. What was the rationale for waiting past 50?
There were no children so family is not a major excuse. It just does seem convenient and maytbe that is really the thing that irritates me the most. It seemed convenient for you.
Hmmmm. I wonder who is saying things like that about me. I have no idea why they would.
As for why I didn't transition until after 50, that would take far too long to explain, and I still don't entirely know why. Drugs and alcohol were part of it, but there's much more than that. At any rate, my spouse loved the androgynous me. It's one of the reasons she was attracted to me in the first place. She was never interested in "real men."
As for my transition being convenient, there was nothing convenient about it. I'm puzzled why you would characterize it that way. In what way would a later transition be convenient?
@Ariel,
Gee why is a late transition convenient? Let me count the ways. Financially stable comes to mind. Long life as a man building a career with a good job.
I am confused how you made it past 50. What were the reasons? Why now? Why not earlier?
Why were you not "driven" to transition earlier?
What we have "in common" Liz, is that we all breathe AIR and need water to survive.
Ariel, it was me who said to Liz that you were trotting around the Parish talking about what a perfect transsexual you are. No you don't say "I am a perfect transsexual" You do it by the things you say and the attitude you take towards those who challenge your assertions about yourself, your narrative, and your history. From a position of limited experience you claim by your attitude to have far greater knowledge than in fact you do possess. As for "proof", there is only my opinion reached after reading what you write elsewhere on multiple other blogs. Disagree, I don't care it probably will not change my opinion.
There are aspects of my life I keep very much I myself except to very trusted sisters. Aspects and facts known only to me and my family. Interestingly they bear a striking similarity to women like Liz and the few other high intensity TS women I have met over the years. Liz has outlined some of them here in this blog entry about which we are now commenting.
Even before I came on line in 2002 I knew of a fair few "late transitioners" of the type Elizabeth refers one in particular was in their seventies. A very kindly person who visited me during my recovery from SRS a great many tears ago. The difference between them and you Ariel and Katherine Martin and all trhe others is that they were well aware that their narrative and life pattern was not at all like mine and was much more aligned with a type IV They understood and were honest about themselves and too themselves.
Now I am not claiming that you necessarily are dishonest, I just think you either do not understand the differences yorself or have swallowed too much "Kool Aid" It's mostly this claim of one thing and lack of believeable narrative to support it that causes much of the confusion. I'm not trying to start a war of words here. You often put a skewed attitude into my words that causes friction. Not withstanding I can be strident at times.
Cassandraspeaks
Elizabeth, I didn't start making good money until about 10 years ago. Before that, I was chasing artistic dreams. Even now, I have a job -- a good one -- but not a career. I'm not a manager. I have never sought or wielded power. You've probably had more of a career and more power than I ever had. And I commend you for having been able to do that as a woman. Yes, I have definite advantages from being older -- and also huge disadvantages.
As for why now and why not earlier, the reasons would make for a very long comment. I've written many blog posts trying to figure that out. Underlying all the reasons is certainly that the brain/body discrepancy that you experienced so intensely at an early age did not become intense for me until a much later age. The lower intensity allowed me to cope, avoid, muddle through, survive by self-medicating, and more.
Just as there are myriad reasons why I muddled through for so long, so there are myriad reaons why it hit so strongly when it did. Can't blame dropping testosterone levels in my case, since that wasn't true. I think it had more to do with finally escaping the straitjacket of worrying about what people would think of me. I could no longer make that muddled existence work, and I was finally mature enough to fix my life.
Long comment, and I've barely scratched the surface. But since I should have been born female-bodied, I also should have had much more of this life than I now have. I have an underlying sadness that you were spared. Be thankful for that.
Elizabeth,
I going to spend a few moments writing this that really I should rather put forth to working in my business at being productive. But, I find it irresistible to read what you wrote and not respond.
Please, I pray you'll not take this as any form of attack for your view. I intent in this response is in the most respectful manner I can muster.
“I do wish there was some way for me to understand the really late transitioners. I can understand being trapped by a decision early in life and that is possible for many Type V transsexuals. The problem is even Type V's have such inner turmoil I find it hard to believe many had that turmoil when I read their blogs and narratives. It is almost like they are presenting a PowerPoint presentation for work and if there is one thing being born transsexual is not it is that “
I follow no ones narratives. I only say what I know to be true within me. I am not a part of any “transgender” agenda. I will admit to having been associated with them for a time. But, only in a manner that was meant to help people I felt were transsexual to gain access to qualified, respectful and compassionate medical care for their transitional experience. Once I saw what the transgender community really has at it's core, I knew that was not who I am. They are not me. I finished my commitment to the group I was involved in, because the goals were worthy and needed. We reached those goals. I was the leader of that group. I directed the agenda and it was adhered to. No political games and no 'transgender” hidden agenda was included. When it was time for me to go is when the focus was being diverted to a more political bent. But all of this has not anything really to do with your thoughts. It is more of a misguided notion that there was something akin between who I am and those that call themselves transgender. What I found was that we are not related at all!
My life now is soley about me being as integrated into normative society as it can be. Do people all accept me? Definitely not. Am I one of the girls? Sometimes yes, and other times I question that they perceive me something other than so. As I stated to you before, getting away from all things 'male' is a difficult challenge for being a “late transitioner”. I was socialized as male for far too many years. I've told you of my familial experience and how rash it was if I even exposed myself just a little bit. I'll put it to an intense desire for self-survival that I was able to make it through my younger years. All of that though, once I allowed it to be released from within was far heavier a burden than I could manage to keep from full realization later in life.
Convenience?
“Gee why is a late transition convenient? Let me count the ways. Financially stable comes to mind. Long life as a man building a career with a good job.”
Transitioning was anything but convenient. What it was, was complete necessity. As for financially stable? Barely! I have told you of my life being from the “other side of the tracks”. I barely make ends meet. It has always been that way, before and after transition. It wasn't financial stability that offered me the opportunity to be myself. It was, me. It was me coupled with a still loving wife. One who learned to understand what was in the darkness that I was hiding. Eventually emerging from that darkness an even better person. One that my wife will tell you, she is much happier with. And, it isn't about sex either. Because you know that I'm Asexual.
No, you and I, we have nothing in common regarding understanding. I will never be able to understand what it would have been like to be who I am at a much younger age. Do I wish that I could have? Absolutely. But, I cannot play a woulda', coulda', shoulda' game with my life. I can only move forward. I'll value highly the levels of acceptance that “normal” people have expressed toward me. An I'll let others say what they will about me negatively. I realize that I don't have to have your or any other persons acceptance to be happy. I already am.
What we do have in common though is that we both know who we are. Women.
@Cassandraspeaks
You're entitled to your opinion of me and your interpretation of what I write. It means nothing to me. I know only about myself and what I went through. I don't have that kind of knowledge of anyone else. I don't have answers. It's why I ask questions.
I don't pretend to be like people who changed sex while young and lived most of their lives post-op. How could I be? At the same time, I know who I am, and I'm no one's stereotype. My narrative is my own. I didn't nick it from anyone else. I don't imagine it's like your narrative or Liz's. It's not like Kathryn's either.
I really don't care about what type I was. Since I was not a cross-dresser, I'm not sure I fit any of the types. My concern is with my present life and where I'm going. My life is what it is, and I do the best I can with it.
@ Elizabeth. You are correct but I think you state it in a way that does not get to the core. All who press forward at an early age to avoid puberty in the wrong paradigm never transition. We/they/whoever do not suffer through stages of puberty that some girls are forced into by circumstances beyond their control. Picture a very aware young woman in a family in say the midwest who is born with XY DNA and male genitalia into a family that is totally convinced she is their son and the society around her is violently rejecting of anyone who is different in gender characteristics. I have a very intelligent friend who went through that experience. There was no way out for her. She transitioned from a girl to a boy unwillingly and went through the entire set of testosterone laden body morphing knowing it was happening and powerless to affect it. Survival is how she classifies it. Simple survival.
I do not pretend to really understand what another person has experienced in life because that would be, IMHO, a bit presumptuous. I enjoy reading your posts because you bring a certain clarity to these topics I find lacking in many other blogs. There is, however, a fundamental difference in our perspectives (at least from what I have seen so far). Your approach focused on correcting the perceptions of others may in fact be better than mine. I freely admit that I tired of that decades ago. My approach became one of watch, wait and listen. I have observed that the wanna-bees, cross-dressers, men, women and all flavors in between sort themselves out sooner or later without any assistance from me.
Life can be complex. I'm wary of over-simplifications.
One datapoint: My best friend during transition was 21 when we met and obviously type VI, by Benjamin's index. She'd been a sex worker for several years and was avid for men. After SRS at 22 she had several year relationships with multiple men and has been in a good marriage to a man for many years. Nevertheless, she also married a woman when she was 17 because they were best friends in high school and it was the expected thing to do.
Experiences and behaviors that seem to cluster, but real people lives and experiences vary greatly with careful inspection.
Cut people slack. It's kind, humane, generous ... and more scientific.
- an old auntie
Oh Dear me! It wouldn't be the first time Miz Know-It-All was wrong! Usually it's a direct result of Lars makings the Mai Tai's a wee too strong but this time I think it was Miz Know-It-All being far to busy in describing the amazing legs of this Elephant while you were talking about it's ears!
So Liz M'dear, may I try to clarify this by saying, I fully agree! The Type VI narrative IS the one being ripped off by the TG to make themselves seem more legitimate!
What Miz Know-It-All was getting at is how after taking your narratives. They will then steal the narratives of the Type V, and I am speaking her of the narratives of having royally screwed up our lives and all that it took to correct it. Which oddly becomes the scaffolding upon which the TG will place the afore mentioned stolen type VI narratives as they dance round the fire! And I do say oddly because NO type V worth her salt would ever DARE to compare herself to a type VI!
Did that make sense? No? Darn! Lars? Too heavy on the Vodka again!
@ Know-it-all.
Please tell Lars too much vodka will make him a limp noodle. I'm not sure what it will do to you.
@Deena, Uhhhh, Party like it's 1999?
@Liz, I've had the exquisite pleasure to have encountered exactly three type VI's in my life. Each so unmistakably female that it was all but impossible, even with Miz Know-It-All's superior intelligence for one to wrap her mind round their ever having had the wrong attachments for their bodies and one was but a day a way from her correction! And while Miz-Know-It-All has grown into a rather lovely woman, hers was by a very different path and it was by a very different narrative than those three lovely young girls!
Oh and while we are on the subject, courtesy of Deena, if you ever find yourself Island Hopping round the South Seas please do pop in! Lars is spoiling for a party and it's ever so hard to get guests to fly in these days! Even for Miz Know-It-All's world famous Soirées de poche!
Tah!
From the pen of anouther girl;
I am a semi late in life transitioner. (started at 40.) I didn't transition for so long due too religous indoctrination and fear of social repurcussions.
I lived a life of pain torment and sufferng. At the core was my female soul that I spent decades running from for fear that accepting the truth would result in me burning in hell.
I drank and toked and snorted my way to oblivion so I could wash away the certain knowledge that I was a female. (A knowledge I first realized at age 9.)
Then one day the drugs couldn't wash the pain away. So I went sober. Which for a time allowed me to run from my self. But eventually nothing would help me forget the truth of myself.
Finally the last straw on the camels back. I saw a picture of a woman who transitioned at 45. She was pretty. I was floored. It dawned on me I wasn't too late. I could transition.
I was running from the truth with all I had. Being a girl was programed into me as something not to be desired. Women in the religion I was raised in are unclean. Women were second class citizens. Also when I understood about transsexuals around age 9 and that I was very likely one of them.......I saw how society treated these poor women. The talk shows with the hooting crowds of people who clearing hated the women on the stage for being freaks. I was deadly afraid of that being me. I didn't want to be so hated by society for something I didn't ask for that my life would be considered a circus side show.
But a transsexual will transition or she will die. I choose life.
This is why I couldn't transition until later in life.
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