Thursday, March 29, 2012

Cotton Ceiling, Lesbians, Transbians, Pretendbians, and Men

I would like to thank a friend for bringing this farce to my attention. Thanks to a friend because if anyone but our mutual friend had told me about this I would have laughed my ass off at its utter stupidity because I have had a hard enough time getting my mind around the simple fact that men in dresses think they have the right to be considered women and the right to enter women's spaces. My issue actually seems to pale a little after thinking about the issue I am about to take on. I copied the following from article.

The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.

First just so people will not think I am nuts, they will anyways I bet, here is the link that has a good discussion about the above including a lengthy debate about it. Here is the Link.

The basic gist of the problem is a "transwoman" or as we all know them a "transvestite" is claiming that he is a transbian or a lesbian with a trans history but with a big gotcha for any lesbian. They are still packing a penis. One of the arguers is lesbian and the other is a transwoman that has a penis or certainly supports lesbians with a penis.

If you follow the entire post it is to say the least both bizarre and enlightening and follows the same bullshit mantra that the transgender penis packers scream about only they have taken it a lot farther here. The claim is that a female bodied woman may have a penis so they are redefining what the female sex characteristics are and have taken that step I knew they were headed for. They want to redefine female so men can fit in when they want to. How convenient for the men.

The argument is that the transwoman gets to define whether she is female bodied and it is her decision and it is both transphobic and trans-misogynistic to claim they are not women.

Thanks. So, just to make sure I understand this, a trans woman with a penis, and who has no desire to have a sex change, is not male bodied – correct? 
There is nothing inherently male about a woman’s body, unless she identified things about it as male herself. So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.

This is the most patently absurd thing I have ever read in my life. The dear man gets it any way he wants. It is his choice while the poor little woman must accept it. Kind of reminds me of how they think concerning women's spaces.

I am a heterosexual woman with a history. I like men because it is how heterosexual women think. I have many lesbian friends and they do not want men as a sex partner.  What is the key component of a man's sex characteristics? His fucking penis of course.

What is being said here is that a lesbian woman that would not even consider a penis packing trans woman as a sex partner is transphobic or trans-misogynistic which I find a weird word. These fucking pathetic wankers in dresses are now demanding lesbian women accept them as lesbian partners and willingly accept being fucked with the one thing about men lesbians basically hate which is a penis. I bet this gets these transvestites titillated. They want to play girl and have their normal heterosexual sex they had with the wife with some poor lesbian and demand the woman accepts her as a lesbian, possibly feminist, without that horrible complication of actually physically becoming a woman.

Do you notice what the trend is here. It is natal women and women with a history that must accept this situation as it is put forth by these men without the right of protest or we are haters and transphobic. Personally if I was a lesbian I would eagerly plan for sex with one of the transbians with a penis and freak out and cut the fucking penis right off and deball the bastard as a second present. I would then call Kevin Reddington out of Brockton, Massachusetts, the real F. Lee Bailey of Attorneys and take my shot in court. I am appalled at violence but this is justifiable mutilation in my humble opinion.

How insulting is this to any lesbian? They are now supposed to have sex with another "woman" and will need protection so they will not get pregnant or some sexually transmitted disease from this pervert. This is another classic case of men attempting to impose their will and their perverted fantasies onto women. There are few cases of women sadistically raping, torturing, and killing men but the opposite is all to common. These are cases where men need to exert power over women this lesbian sex issue it is a classic example of it. Lesbians call them pretendbians as in pretend lesbians.

These transbian men with a penis want the privilege of being considered female and the privilege of having female sexual partners as woman on woman while using a prick. Somehow that sounds like some form of male pornographic fantasy.  I bet if you searched Amazon for transvestite books like this it would list a bunch.

Now for the key point here. The trend is obvious.  Men forcing women to submit to their fantasy and calling it transphobic if we do not. My question is simple. Why aren't they demanding the same of their fellow men?

If what they say here is not a man that refuses to have anal sex with a man in a dress and refuses to accept the transwoman as a woman really transphobic. Where is the outrage over this injustice? There is none.  Why? Because they know their fellow men would beat the living shit out of them if they pulled that kind of crap. Why are they not demanding men accept them as women into the men's room so they can pee standing up which they prefer anyway? They would get the shit kicked out them again.  Do you get the drift here?

Women are weaker than men and we are not usually in positions of power like men so these men are accustomed to pushing women around and making us do what they want. It is nothing more than another form of abuse men commit on women.  In this case we are demeaned and forced to accept men as female and thus lose our singular advantage which is our sex characteristics because we all know straight men are obsessed with breasts and the female vagina

To those of us truly born transsexual a vagina is very important and anyone that says otherwise is delusional. If these sissy boys when in dresses gave up their penis and actually had a functioning vagina they would be the object of their scorn, which is a woman. Their fucking penis has always been their male pleasure point and as men they see no reason they should have to give that up in order to be female so they will redefine female. It quite simply, in the only words I can think of, is another way to put women in their place which is beneath men.

It has finally come full circle and men want female redefined as someone who "feels" they are female bodied and even with a penis they are as female as we are. So we have reached the state where men believe they have the right to be pretend females and pretend lesbians and if anyone questions them they are transphobic.

The absurdity of demanding that a lesbian accept sex with a man in a dress pretending to be a woman is beneath contempt. It is the same for women's spaces. Expect to see responses where these men will claim  surgery is too dangerous, a vagina does not define you as female, and sundry other excuses. Have at it boys and no complaints if some lesbian performs a Lorena Bobbit for you because in my opinion you deserve it.


Anonymous said...

This whole sorry, crass mess redefines "Chutzpah" It is beyond stupid it is frankly evil. Having read a few of the lesbian blogs that are dealing with this issue and witnessed the fully justified anger of lesbian women I can only say "Welcome to our world" this is the exact battle we have been having with the TG for the past 20 years or more. This is the fight we have been involved in with the medical profession and the psychiatric quacks for the same period.

Is it any wonder we lose patience with these TG's and shake our heads in dismay when people lump us in with them even though we continually attempt to distance ourselves.


Anonymous said...

This goes to prove there is no limit to stupid.

The rationalization of penis packing perverts is enough to give me a headache.

Well all you Lesbian and Gay people you wanted to include transgenders in your ranks to increase your numbers and your political clout.

You got what you deserve!!
Dump the transgender before you loose your credibility as a political pressure group.

All I can do is laugh my head off over this one.


Sagebrush said...

Elizabeth, I really wish you would stop finding things that make my head hurt! But then, they would be out there whether you found them or not, and it's probably best to know.

I consider myself generally progressive politically, but for me this is where progressive goes off the rails entirely. I should have thought that people would not continue to deny biology, but apparently it has not yet gone out of fashion. Somehow, every creature on earth is biological except human beings, who are entirely cultural. The exceptionalism is mind-boggling.

So the fact that you (and I) find men to be sexually attractive isn't about how they look, sound, smell, feel, and generally affect us at a gut level. Apparently, all of those senses have been culturally conditioned! According to the person you cite, lesbians should ignore the fact that they like the smell of other women. I guess even pheromones are culturally conditioned. In order not to be transphobic, they should ignore all of those biological signs.


Black is white, hate is love, war is peace, and penises are female -- at least if the owner "identifies" as female.

I will add one thing, however. I doubt that male-bodied (yes, I said it) people who have transitioned in all ways except surgically want to do any penetrating. I doubt they could even if they wanted to. Mostly I think they want their "girly" penises treated in some other sexual way. You know -- like a giant clitoris. :\

Anonymous said...

Elizabeth, Wow this is seriously messed up of Planned Parenthood if they do this, this turns it--more on (moron pun intended). OK this is pushing it over the cliff of decency; really, "Cotton Ceiling?" WTF Ruse! In sexual relationships absolute discrimination must exist. I'm having one of those--"for real"--moments, knock upside the head. I'm seeing how women, feminists and lesbians, coming out of the closet, really think about even post-op women because of this. Point well taken.


Deena said...

I have never groped the concept of a maab who wanted to become a woman who then wanted to be a lesbian. I guess I am just stupid.

Miz Know-It-All said...

You don't? I'm rather surprised because it's really quite simple. With exception granted for the very very few women with history who are legitimately lesbian in their sexual attraction. The other 99.999999% are "lesbian" for a VERY good reason! Actually, it's two VERY good reasons.

One, is because of the extreme homophobia that men have about willing sexual contact with other men as in, "Oh Hell! Only some gott damn queers would suck on some damn dick!" Which is negated by being lesbian.

The second is that their male privilege is so deeply ingrained into their being they simply cannot lower themselves to actually BE women!

As in "only them gott-damn queers and them women-folk would suck on any damn dicks!"

Ok I lied.. it's three and the third is that you really cannot change sexual attraction. Sp being that they were straight men and attracted to women before they "identified" as women... Now? They are still attracted to women... which kinda begs the question surgery or not if they really are women doesn't it!

She says, stepping back rapidly after having poured a few gallons of gasoline on the fire!


Miz Know-It-All said...


As the character in Agatha said again and again to Tom Cruise as John Anderton in the movie "Minority Report" "Can you see? Can you see? She was not criticizing him for his being short sighted! Rather she was trying to open his eyes to the larger picture that was behind the one presented! So too are we in saying what we have to you!

Look, it's not that we hate the TG or that we are elitists snobs, whatever that actually is, or that we want to throw anyone under the bus. But as long as we are tied to them willingly or by force. You, BS, might as well not have bothered with all the bother, because to the world they've "educated?" You are still and always will be a man!

Glad to see that you've got it!

Miz Know-It-All said...

What truly gets me about this is not the amazing sexual hubris shown, or the incredible Chutzpah of men to say these sexually dominating and stupid things!

But that these are supposedly "identified as (wo)men" standing there, stone cold sober saying in the same sentence. I am ~a woman,~ so you must spread your thighs and penetration by me, like it or not!


As a woman who has endured the reality and horror of rape. The very concept of that fucking grotesque and obscene statement offends me to my very core!

I wish them dead and a pox upon all the houses!

Anonymous said...


Not so fast. Lets discuss this well put rebuttal.

If you can't feel for this woman you don't have a heart.


Elizabeth said...


The individual at the link you provided is a man who sometimes is en femme and sometimes not according to his own postings yet he has this misconception that since he wears a dress he is a lesbian.

He has no right to "expect" any lesbian to accept him. He is not a feminist yet rails against the rad fem. This person is neither a queer woman nor a lesbian and is the problem.

IMHO any lesbian that would find a man in a dress with a penis acceptable as a lesbian is probably bi-sexual or not lesbian. Lesbians are sort of anti penis.

There is no indication that this person is anything other than a transvestite. If one is "appearing" en femme to get the ladies discount then one is NOT transsexual but a transvestite.

I have zero sympathy for transvestites and I actually find it humorous you find this character sympathetic. This is just another man with his pathetic little fantasy which in his case involves him being accepted as a lesbian.

I do realize that rad fems can be anti-transsexual but I am totally on their side when we get to the transvestite in a dress with a penis claiming to be female and wanting a lesbian relationship.

There is actually NO SUCH creature as a trans woman. There are preop transsexuals and there are women with a history. There is no such thing as a transvestite woman except in their pathetic little pea sized brains and in their pathetic little fantasies when they are forcibly feminized into women.

This individual is one of the latter and totally not sympathetic but totally PATHETIC. Another case of men demanding women buy into their personal fantasy.

Sorry the only fantasy I ever bought into was as a kid and it involved Disney and my Knight in Shining Armor.

Miz Know-It-All said...

Are you fucking kidding me, or are have you finally gone completely bat shit crazy? Ok, yes, yesterday was April first so I'm going to be kind and put that down to a very poor joke on your part rather than the alternative. Which is to seriously question your sanity! But oh what the hell, lets address this as real just for some shits and giggles shall we? "Sable" is in fact male, middle aged, overweight and one would assume, being male he bears all the marks of one who is middle aged and overweight, and MALE! Balding, pot gut, jowls, saggy ass, thick facial hair shaved or not with coarse male skin, body hair, male skeletal structure (large shoulders, hands, feet, brow ridges, thick jaw, thick neck, etc) he says he is in possession of intact male genitalia so one would assume he also reeks of male musk and the capper? He is obsessed with "lesbian" and she male porn. know, there really must be something to that cotton ceiling thing cause I can't imagine why when (s)he walks into a lesbian bar (s)he is not simply swarmed with women wanting to be penetrated by that (wo)man's lady stick!

And that is not even getting into how Sable, by being a "trans-woman" and a "trans-activist" not only invalidates you as possibly being a woman because of your history, (s)he invalidates all women, those with history or not, by claiming that he(r) sexual needs as an intact male are far more important than any woman's! And that dear BS, woman to woman sets my teeth on edge! So my answer to your question is; I have less than zero sympathy for this person!

Anonymous said...

So much of this is emotional blackmail no more no less. You say that if we don't feel sorry for this person we don't have a heart. I feel as sorry for this person as I do the person who lives in the next street whom i see when out walking sometimes. There is no other way to say this, they are ugly as sin, single and the chances of them ever finding a partner are extremely lean and most likely zero. This Transvestite is really in the same boat.

This is not a "rights" issue or an oppressed minority issue. It is nature pure and simple. It is life and it isn't fair, no-one said it was. No-one has sex with someone because they feel sorry for them and that is simply the way it is. Sexual attraction is not something you can turn on or off.

Do I feel sorry for these freaks? Not really I pity them but that is not the same as feeling sorry. They are not women they are not lesbian they are not even transsexual. They are transvestites who have been taken in by the same propaganda you seem to have.

Now for the part that really tuns my stomach and makes my blood boil; these are the spearhead of the weapon that has the potential to destroy every vestige of acceptance that transsexuals have won through our diligence and hard work over the past 50 years. This is the start of the craziness that could cause the backlash that sets us all back to the dark ages. This is what will destroy your life BS.


Anonymous said...

Part 1:
Wow, this is really mean.

I'm a feminist but that does not mean I hate and fear men. Feminists shouldn't hate men. And lesbians shouldn't hate men either. It's wonderful to love who you you want openly and peacefully.

I suppose I'm a bisexual female. I've been in loving relationships with men, women, and currently a trans woman.

I can tell you right now that there is a big difference between men and trans women. It's not fair to use such horrible language about their bodies like "reeks of male musk" and the like. Trans women do not "reek of male musk." I know this to be true because I actually love the "reek of male musk" and I miss it sometimes. My partner smells... not male. It ranges from a mild woman smell, to a nothing smell even if she's totally sweating and hasn't showered in a day or two. (god this is so invasive). She would probably "reek of male musk" if she stopped taking hormones for a while, but while this would be fun for me, it would surely be incredibly painful and horrifying for her, or at the very least very embarrassing and at the ultimate plateau of her "cool with herself"ness-- at least a total turn off for her.

I can see why many lesbians would not want to be in relationships with trans women, and I think that is totally an okay preference that no one should force you to not have. I don't think that your feelings are transphobic, but it's hard to talk about because they lay in a gray area and are hard to explain. To say that you cannot have sex with and/or love a trans woman as a lesbian is valid on many levels, just a few of which are 1) Everyone deserves their sexual integrity and no one should be allowed to permeate your most private and sacred world. 2) People can not help their preferences and apparently are more often than not "born that way." 3) You as a human being deserve the right to choose who you do and do not have sex with and things saying otherwise are some of the darkest forms of oppression. ....and so on.
But then, trans women feel so strongly that they are women that they would (and many have) die for it. They would face ridicule isolation, illness, loss of bodily function, health risks, family alienation, risks of violence and rape, and severe crippling self esteem and depression issues, to be what they feel they have to be. (Personally I think it's really dumb that people are so freaked out by "A man in a dress", or a lady with a deep voice. But whatever.) ~~~ So they feel that they are women, would potentially die for it, and the ones that are attracted only to women (who call themselves lesbians), can not sometimes be accepted in the lesbian community, or may be accepted but be unable to find sex/love partners. (So far in my "irl" lesbian community experience I've seen a lot of openness to dating trans women, and even a love for them, and only this kind of viciousness on the internet though so... I wonder.)

Anonymous said...

Part 2:
There are certain things unique to trans women that may make one not want to or be emotionally capable of dating them. Things like watching your partner change, the specific mood swings and effects of hormones, the stress, sometimes unreliability and healing time of surgeries, the cost, the societal ridicule, the sex and libido issues, and the fragility of being with someone with body and identity issues. For a lot of people... this is just too much. "Cis" women don't have to worry about these particular things in this particular way, and they don't *have* to. But when you're in love with someone, you *choose* to, because you love them. And if you can't bear it, then maybe you have to leave and let your partner find the one that can. But no fucking way are most people equipped to deal with this, it's ignorant and selfish to expect them to, and trans women don't usually *want* to be trans women. No one wants to put everyone around them in such horrible pain, and themselves too. There is a lot of joy in a transition, but equally as much pain, if not more for many people.

And once someone transitions, there are differences if anything just due to their experiences in life, and the way their body functions. Some or a lot of lesbians just try as they might, not be able to be sexually attracted to a person like that and it's not really their fault because:

It's silly to get so into definitions to the point where we forget that attraction is a strange and mysterious thing and one should just leave it at that, without any hurt feelings.

The fear of men invading the lesbian community is perhaps valid in some rare cases, but overall very silly. It negates every risk trans women face on a daily basis to be who they are. I love my partner very much, and it took me a while not to constantly worry about her well being when she went out alone, and I still am very tense and worried for her when she just has to simply use a public restroom. She does not get off on this in the way that you suggest, and simply wants to live her life without ridicule or fear for her safety just for simply looking and being the way she feels right, and the way that she has to be~~ for whatever reason, lest she face severe pain, depression and anxiety on a daily basis. Sometimes she doesn't seem "exactly" like any other woman and sometimes she seems like a guy. (this is just my partner, and not every trans woman obviously.), but how is one to tell what are just the remaining effects of social conditioning from living most of your life as a male, vs actual male behavior? Women "act like men" freely. One can't deny that it is much more acceptable in society for women to wear pants every day and still be considered feminine. But trans women, especially those early in their transition, don't really have the luxury of even that. It's all so stupid. And men love to be nurtured. You would never see it blatantly plastered everywhere in every movie, but so often it's the woman that holds the man gently in her arms as he falls asleep. Childbirth is an intense, barbaric, crazy and wonderful experience for a woman. Women are fucking strong. And fragile. And so are men. But we still aren't getting to the heart of the matter. It's too complicated and has too many gray areas, and people don't take kindly to gray areas because it's too hard to define and too hard to weigh morally. The definitions are getting out of control lately, but I'm not saying that as a person that believes all expressions of our sex are societally driven.

Anonymous said...

Part 3:
Women are so mean to each other. "Cis" women (I hate that term) are often really competitive, unsupportive, jealous, and fearful of one another. How can you be lesbians and show zero nurturing/loving qualities? I say that because, as women you must be able to look in your hearts to see and understand what trans women go through and face. I mean, many transsexuals are murdered all the time, and raped, and objectified... is this okay just because they are "men" and thus they are asking for it? It seems like your own misogyny is apparent in that you cant possibly fathom why a man would want to be a woman or feel themselves to be a woman unless it is a form of manipulation, or to gain access to your safe space.

Transsexualism is something that is not understood, that's for sure. But even at the end of the day, when all research is completed and every possible question is answered about what exactly that is... if it turns out that they really are just mentally ill men, or choosing to be the way they are, or very feminine men that can't accept their androgyny, or very fetishistic men and so on.... does that still give you the right to treat them as less than human? They are still embracing the feminine, they are still beings that are worthy of integrity and respect.

Men have hearts and so many transwomen have the biggest ones of all. I'm disappointed in the commenters here and if all that matters is opinions in this strange world of rules you are building.... then my opinion is that none of you are women outside of your visible genitalia because you are showing none of the wonderful qualities that make women what they are generally understood to be. Does that make sense? No. It's totally stupid and cruel. Of course you are women. You just have some very bad experiences with men in your past, and/or trans women as well, that is apparent.

Anonymous said...

Part 4:
I know everything I've said is probably not going to make a dent at all in your mindset on this, or your paranoia of transwomen. I know what it feels like to be totally wrapped up in that kind of mental state, and there is not a single thing that can pull you out of it save for your own experiences usually with the people closest to you, or when life kicks you in the ass.

I don't know where any of this began and it's a rather moot point to try to figure it out but it's a sort of vicious cycle with trans women angrily screaming transphobia at lesbians, and lesbians screaming exactly what you are stating up above ^

The only real middle ground here can be reached through being educated (such is the case with all prejudice). I understand that the lesbian community may feel like "Why should I spend my energy trying to understand these dumb crying men in dresses, we were happy just as we are and we don't need to contemplate penises" or something.

But the reason it is pertinent to the lesbian community to be educated about this is because if any of you were under some strange stroke of the gods to actually fall in love with a trans woman (just for argument's sake), you would realize that they are *not* men. You may not decide that they are women (your opinion does not change or effect their identity however, and what is real to *them*), but you would realize that. And ... why not be educated about it. I mean really, why reject an entire population of people or forcibly believe things about them that are untrue. Prejudice is never okay. And sexuality has always been more of a spectrum rather than a black and white sort of thing and is even subject to change in relation to age and time. If there is another gender expression (that in all truthfulness so far scientifically, may well or may not be women) that identifies as lesbian out there, then it would make sense for you to be educated about it, because it isn't going to just disappear.

Anonymous said...

Part 5:
Trans women don't smell like men. They just really don't. Their penises don't even feel/act/respond like regular men's penises. Their mind is not really like a man's mind. Even though they will have a male skeletal shape, if they are taking hormones they will age in the way a woman's body ages. (so no thick man "jowels" and "brow ridges" etc. They are sensitive and nurturing, feel pain, are desiring and deserving of love and intimacy.

If anything my one comment against things in the trans category is that I feel the medical community is misogynistic in that it tends to think it's okay for trans women to have a low libido and lose function of their sex organs. That is so ridiculous and I think it's things like this that women should fight for. Society is afraid of our sexuality. Always objectifying our bodies but putting forth this idea that women are not sexual beautiful nurturing barbaric and loving beings. We are the ultimate sex object that is totally neutered while men fear that we use our sexuality only as a form of control~~ hence their fear of us. It's extremely more not okay for a trans woman to NOT have use of their penis should they choose to keep it. Because a woman should never have her sexuality taken away from her. And this is a huge point that all of you are missing ~~ many trans women do not choose to get sexual reassignment surgery because of the risks associated with loss of sexual sensation, loss of desire, and other complications. I feel very insulted as a woman that the medical community is not researching better alternatives for trans women and giving better sex education so that they will not think they have to choose between being a woman and having no sexual drive or function. It's almost like a punishment for a man to choose to be a woman~~~ become a woman, become a neutered creature with this fetishized body and garb, with even less leeway than most "cis" women have.

How ridiculous and how very male.

Do not make the mistake of blaming trans women for this, because truly all you are seeing is the effect of everything you dislike about society, but on the body of another expression of femininity.


Anyways please. Don't be cruel to each other. Until there is some (actual solid) research that helps us truly understand what this is, please don't be expectant of each other, and more importantly be accepting of yourselves and the world around you. I doubt there WILL be solid and reliable research regarding this because gender expression is one of the greatest ways humans like to control and organize one another.

I think you should embrace the feminine all around you, in all of its forms. Sleep with who you will, but be kind to femininity in all of it's forms~~ and I hope this gets through to both the lesbian and trans female community.

Kawaii Youta Manami Lizama said...

I don't know if this fits into your article or not. I feel I am transbian, but I will concur the gender tends to track with gender Ina homosexual community ( gay, lesbian or transbian) my primary choice for a sexual relationship would ideally be another mtf transsexual (MY definition of a transbian). I feel I am feminine and female, and it does not matter much to me how others feel think or believe on the subject. I can't change your opinion and I do not want to. It does seem, though, that your beliefs are the equivalent of those who feel that homosexuality can be cured corrected or changed. I stay with the homosexuality terms rather than trying to put a dividing line between genders. All I KNOW is how I feel. Sexual preference is only the business of two consenting adults. What I prefer is not likely to be of interest to you and what you prefer is none of my business short of being the topic of conversation at the moment.
Kawaii Youta Manami Lizama