Friday, October 21, 2011

Diagnosis of Transsexualism

I deleted a comment late in the previous post because the individual did not sign the Anonymous comment but what was said was interesting and explains perfectly why there is so much confusion and about who is and who is not transsexual. It involved the diagnosis of transsexualism or more to the point who can transition and change BC etc.. These are actually separate issues and the first part is actually the key to everything.

The term is transsexualism but the condition is clearly known to all that were born that way. The DSM and certain idiots in peripheral communities would like you to believe a doctor diagnoses one as transsexual but that is totally incorrect. I will get to this point shortly but let me first explain why this is now an issue when it never was before.

The condition defined as transsexualism has been redefined and not for the better. Now all some fool has to say is I have basically had gender dysphoria for a few years at 55 and bingo they are transsexual despite never having any issues earlier. They will change the narrative to fit more accurately into the classic definition but some are both honest enough and arrogant enough to be truthful. I cannot tell you how many times on a blog I have read some man say his therapist convinced him that he was transsexual and off to the surgeon they march. I even read someone that claimed thier transsexual minister convinced him he was transsexual.  Misery needed company in that case I guess.

The problem with all of this is simple. In many ways being transsexual is self diagnosed. I can only speak for my friends and I that were born transsexual.  Even today the kids I deal with on a personal basis diagnose themselves because quite simply we believe we are girls and want to complete the steps necessary to physically be female. I knew I was a girl and Harry Benjamin just placed a name to my self aware condition. All of the transsexuals I have known have always known they were or should be girls.

In the modern world one would need to be living under an iceberg in Antarctica not to know what a transsexual is or to have heard the terminology somewhere. We know what is or was wrong with us. We are girls and physically we need to match our bodies to our needs and desires as girls. Transsexuals do not go to a doctor to be diagnosed. Transsexuals go to a doctor so they can be cured through hormones and surgery. It is a lousy analogy but it is not unlike breaking your leg and going to the hospital for help repairing it. Transsexuals are seeking help not a diagnosis. A transsexual might not know what it is called but they know what is needed to fix the problem and the doctor provides that solution and not the diagnosis.

In fact it is almost impossible for a doctor to diagnose someone as transsexual. Parents of young transsexuals in today's world notice differences in a child and take them to a doctor and in reality the child diagnoses themselves.  The simple concept of "I am a girl" or "I should be a girl" is enough. It is impossible to diagnose transsexualism without those thoughts. Liking dolls, dresses and other girl things does not make one transsexual.  The child could be transsexual, a transvestite, gay, or even gender questioning and all should be helped but the transsexual child knows.

If anyone says they were unsure and were diagnosed as transsexual then they are not transsexual. Being transsexual is not something gray although lots of those in the transgender community not transsexual wish it was. It is quite simple actually. You either are or are not transsexual. There are super transvestites, Benjamin classified them as Type IV, that stop getting the need satisfied just dressing and some actually try and morph into transsexuals. Only a masochist would want to be transsexual which ironically fits more than afew transvestites.

 Even Benjamin diagnosed his patients by their narratives and at least in his day the concept of the "learned narrative" was unknown so his case history is pure since these patients sought out Harry with great difficulty. The one truth about all his transsexual patients is they wanted to "change their sex".  There was no concept of keeping one's penis and being transsexual.  Transvestites kept their penis. Now certain people wish us to believe this has changed but it has not.

I have over the years had people tell me it was a privilege or a gift to be transsexual which means immediately to me they are not transsexual because as Harry said in his book "nobody is more miserable than a transsexual". Harry did have the Type IV transsexual he consider non-surgical but they were more the super transvestite. Wanting to change your sex made you a "true transsexual" or it certainly did at one time.

I have jumped out on several limbs when dealing with certain individuals over the year plus time-frame I have had this blog. I have on occasion made an assumption whether someone was transsexual or not and in almost all cases I have done it after reading their personal blogs or sometimes their comments where they describe themselves. Their own self diagnosis can be revealing and damning. When it is obvious or I get upset at some nastiness I respond. In most cases but not all I am the respondent and not the instigator but I am by no means innocent of any fault. When someone knows the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual and describes themselves as a transvestite then they are what they say they are.  They self diagnosed themselves and it is what they are.

Anyone that went for help and did not want a sex change is not transsexual in the classic way. Sometimes the old way was more accurate than the new way and this is one of them. I wonder how many of you transsexuals out there that read this blog would claim they never wanted a sex change?

65 comments:

Anne said...

I can't even spell "twansexual". Now I are one. :-)

Anonymous said...

Totally correct and therin lays the whole problem between TG (transvestites) who claim to be transsexuals and Transsexuals.

CS

Deena said...

Liz the last sentence in paragraph 4 reads "I and none of the transsexuals I know, despite when they transitioned, have always felt they were girls or should be girls.

I think you meant ...I and all of the transsexuals I know, despite when they transitioned, have always felt they were girls or should be girls.

Abby said...

I would....

I've never WANTED a sex change.

still don't.

Got any other viable options for a girl born with a male body?

Elizabeth said...

@Abby

You are not a girl nor a transsexual so I have no advice for something I am not familiar with.

I do have a question though. What do you do with those male parts. Do you use them at all for anything other that peeing on trees?

Abby said...

I'm pleased you've cleared that up for me liz, thank you.

Abby said...

In actual fact, you've made me think quite a bit with that one.

as a kid growing up, I always wanted to be a girl, as in, have a girls/female body. living were I did it was never a remote possibility for me, there was nothing to tell me it could be done. I think I got to a point where I just didn't let myself want that anymore, it was killing me and in part, that's probably how I made it to 27 and where I am now.

So I think that, the breakdown is probably in how one words things. Do I WANT a sex change? not really, I just want to be normal, "right", and to do that I NEED it.

I do like your post, and the one following it.

thanks for the food for thought.

Autumn Sandeen said...

Quoting from your piece:

"If anyone says they were unsure and were diagnosed as transsexual then they are not transsexual. Being transsexual is not something gray although lots of those in the transgender community not transsexual wish it was. It is quite simple actually. You either are or are not transsexual. There are super transvestites, Benjamin classified them as Type IV, that stop getting the need satisfied just dressing and some actually try and morph into transsexuals. Only a masochist would want to be transsexual which ironically fits more than a few transvestites."

Dr. Benjamin wrote on the subject of rigid guidelines of who is and who isn't a transsexual in The Transsexual Phenomenon. From Chapter 2 of the 1967 book:

"...It must be left to further observations and investigations in greater depth to decide whether or not transvestitic desires may really be transsexual in nature and origin. Many probably are, but the frequent fetishistic transvestites may have to be excluded.

"If these attempts to define and classify the transvestite and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.

"It is true that the request for a conversion operation is typical only for the transsexual and can actually serve as definition. It is also true that the transvestite looks at his sex organ as an organ of pleasure, while the transsexual turns from it in disgust. Yet, even this is not clearly defined in every instance and no two cases are ever alike. An overlapping and blurring of types or groups is certainly frequent."


To quote Eric Vilain, the chief of medical genetics at UCLA's David Geffen School of Medicine in the Los Angeles Times article Gender Blender: Intersexual? Transsexual? Male, female aren't so easy to define:

"Sex should be easily definable, but it's not. Our gender identity -- our profound sense of being male or female -- is independent from our anatomy."

Let me add one more thought from Dr. Benjamin from chapter 6 of the book:

"I have even met transvestites who dislike (or pretend to dislike) transsexualism so much that they are against estrogen treatment and operation (for reasons of self-protection?). There are also transsexuals who dislike transvestites as well as homosexuals. Intolerance can be found in strange quarters."

Elizabeth said...

@Sandeen

Those are good points Autumn and well taken but there is something you missed. Harry would have classified them as Type IV transsexuals or non-surgical or his super transvestite.

There is no question the lines blur but those lines are in the transvestite to transsexual cases where there is no desire for surgery and nobody with a penis is a female nor are they women. The concept is simple. How can you function as a woman with a penis? Who will accept you as a woman with a penis if you are not intending SRS?

The answer is simple someone else with a penis who likes dresses or wants to pretend they are not gay. Pretending and screaming you are a woman does not make it so despite what you all want to believe.

I do not hate transvestites but I know what needy, greedy, manipulative assholes they are because I was tricked by one. I really do not care what you and your transvestite friends think about transsexuals because I stopped being one 41 years or so ago. Unlike you I was cured.

In your case you seem to think maintenance issues make a penis more user friendly which by definition makes you male because no women thinks that way.

Doctors do not diagnose transsexualism. The patient goes to the doctor knowing they should be a girl or in many cases believing they are a girl. There may be hesitation in telling a doctor your feelings but even Harry knew by the late 70's too many loons were claiming transsexuality.

Claiming you are transsexual and wanting to maintain your penis is extremely detrimental to transsexual children but then I doubt you give a rats ass about that. Parents have a difficult enough time dealing with transsexual children and then some loon like you shows up claiming transsexuality when it is convenient.

You have it correct because you are transgender forever and that transgender world is the one Virginia Prince believed in where transsexuals are exclude and you transvestites can hang together.

Anonymous said...

@Autumn Sandeen: The term "gender identity" makes it look like we have a simple switch in our head that says "male" or "female". But we have so much more than that. I believe that if you are female inside, then you should also have a female sexuality. And a female sexuality and a penis simply don't match. Our sexuality was designed by nature to work with a specific set of organs, so saying that our "gender identity" (whatever that means) is independent from our anatomy is simply wrong.

My sexuality tells me that I want to "receive", and you just can't do that with a penis, so it has to go. What does your sexuality tell you?

/*M*/

Elizabeth said...

@Abby

I do believe I misunderstood your first comment on this post. My apologies Abby.

I have been corrected by a friend.

Abby said...

No appology Necessary Liz, I should have been clearer.

Autumn Sandeen said...

(1 of 3 -- very sorry for the long response, but a lot of quoting of relevant text)

Elizabeth, my comment is you want a black-and-white reality between transsexual, transgender, and gender non-conforming people -- even knowing Dr. Benjamin made a point of pointing there are shades of gray regarding sex and gender-- well, you're not going to find those lines about 45-years later in the current version of what used to be referred to as the Harry Benjamin Standards Of Care (HBSOC).

Version 7 of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Standards of Care (SOC) for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People recognizes how the treatment schemas have changed from one where patients were required to comply a one-size-fits-all treatment plan for transsexuals to a more individual treatment schema that recognizes that treatment required to alleviate the distress of gender dysphoria is different for every patient. From the section entitled Advancements in the Knowledge and Treatment of Gender Dysphoria:

"In the second half of the 20th century, awareness of the phenomenon of gender dysphoria increased when health professionals began to provide assistance to alleviate gender dysphoria by supporting changes in primary and secondary sex characteristics through hormone therapy and surgery, along with a change in gender role. Although Harry Benjamin already acknowledged a spectrum of gender nonconformity (Benjamin, 1966), the initial clinical approach largely focused on identifying who was an appropriate candidate for sex reassignment to facilitate a physical change from male to female or female to male as completely as possible (e.g., Green & Fleming, 1990; Hastings, 1974). This approach was extensively evaluated and proved to be highly effective. Satisfaction rates across studies ranged from 87% of MtF patients to 97% of FtM patients (Green & Fleming, 1990), and regrets were extremely rare (1-1.5% of MtF patients and <1% of FtM patients; Pfäfflin, 1993). Indeed, hormone therapy and surgery have been found to be medically necessary to alleviate gender dysphoria in many people (American Medical Association, 2008; Anton, 2009; The World Professional Association for Transgender Health, 2008).

"As the field matured, health professionals recognized that while many individuals need both hormone therapy and surgery to alleviate their gender dysphoria, others need only one of these treatment options and some need neither (Bockting & Goldberg, 2006; Bockting, 2008; Lev, 2004). Often with the help of psychotherapy, some individuals integrate their trans- or cross-gender feelings into the gender role they were assigned at birth and do not feel the need to feminize or masculinize their body. For others, changes in gender role and expression are sufficient to alleviate gender dysphoria. Some patients may need hormones, a possible change in gender role, but not surgery; others may need a change in gender role along with surgery, but not hormones. In other words, treatment for gender dysphoria has become more individualized..."

Autumn Sandeen said...

(2 of 3)

(Still quoting the WPATH SOC)

"As a generation of transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals has come of age – many of whom have benefitted from different therapeutic approaches – they have become more visible as a community and demonstrated considerable diversity in their gender identities, roles, and expressions. Some individuals describe themselves not as gender nonconforming but as unambiguously cross-sexed (i.e., as a member of the other sex; Bockting, 2008). Other individuals affirm their unique gender identity and no longer consider themselves either male or female (Bornstein, 1994; Kimberly, 1997; Stone, 1991; Warren, 1993). Instead, they may describe their gender identity in specific terms such as transgender, bigender, or genderqueer, affirming their unique experience that may transcend a male/female binary understanding of gender (Bockting, 2008; Ekins & King, 2006; Nestle, Wilchins, & Howell, 2002). They may not experience their process of identity affirmation as a “transition,” because they never fully embraced the gender role they were assigned at birth or because they actualize their gender identity, role, and expression in a way that does not involve a change from one gender role to another. For example, some youth identifying as genderqueer have always experienced their gender identity and role as such (genderqueer). Greater public visibility and awareness of gender diversity (Feinberg, 1996) has further expanded options for people with gender dysphoria to actualize an identity and find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them."

"Health professionals can assist gender dysphoric individuals with affirming their gender identity, exploring different options for expression of that identity, and making decisions about medical treatment options for alleviating gender dysphoria."


Under the section entitled Options for Psychological and Medical Treatment of Gender Dysphoria, it lists the following treatments:

• Changes in gender expression and role (which may involve living part time or full time in another gender role, consistent with one’s gender identity)

• Hormone therapy to feminize or masculinize the body

• Surgery to change primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (e.g., breasts/chest, external and/or internal genitalia, facial features, body contouring)

• Psychotherapy (individual, couple, family, or group) for purposes such as exploring gender identity, role, and expression; addressing the negative impact of gender dysphoria and stigma on mental health; alleviating internalized transphobia; enhancing social and peer support; improving body image; or promoting resilience

Autumn Sandeen said...

(3 of 3)

The WPATH SOC indicates that hormones are a treatment for gender dysphoria, and doesn't draw a line of saying only transsexual people are eligible for hormones, and crossdressers are not -- instead the WPATH SOC draws their line in stating hormones are "a medically necessary intervention for many transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals with gender dysphoria."

And regarding surgery, the WPATH SOC draws similar lines. Section XI, titled Surgery, has this in the opening paragraph of the section:

"Surgery -- particularly genital surgery – is often the last and the most considered step in the treatment process for gender dysphoria. While many transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals find comfort with their gender identity, role, and expression without surgery, for many others surgery is essential and medically necessary to alleviate their gender dysphoria (Hage & Karim, 2000). For the latter group, relief from gender dysphoria cannot be achieved without modification of their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics to establish greater congruence with their gender identity. Moreover, surgery can help patients feel more at ease in the presence of sex partners or in venues such as physicians’ offices, swimming pools, or health clubs. In some settings, surgery might reduce risk of harm in the event of arrest or search by police or other authorities."

Note the language of the SOC -- the definition of who is eligible for both hormones and genital surgeries are "transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals" with "gender dysphoria", and surgery as a medically necessary treatment is what the individual patient needs. You don't have to embrace the word transsexual for yourself on any level whatsoever, and you don't have to be medically diagnosed as a transsexual, to have sex reassignment surgery.

Don't take my word for it, Elizabeth, read the entirety of version 7 of the WPATH SOC yourself.

WPATH has taken the Dr. Benjamin idea of about 45-years ago that there are shades of gray in gender expression and gender identity, and based on the best available science and expert professional consensus, and articulated the following:

"The overall goal of the SOC is to provide clinical guidance for health professionals to assist transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming people with safe and effective pathways to achieving lasting personal comfort with their gendered selves, in order to maximize their overall health, psychological well-being, and self-fulfillment."

So, I'm left back to quoting Dr. Benjamin when he stated:

"I have even met transvestites who dislike (or pretend to dislike) transsexualism so much that they are against estrogen treatment and operation (for reasons of self-protection?). There are also transsexuals who dislike transvestites as well as homosexuals. Intolerance can be found in strange quarters."

I'm left with the realization that even from the medical side of things, the best available science and expert professional consensus is that transgender, transsexual, gender nonconforming individuals all now have the gender dysphoria diagnosis. Treatment is based on what is medically necessary to alleviate an individual's gender dysphoria. Even from a medical perspective, transgender, transsexual, gender nonconforming individuals seem to have more commonalities with each other than dissimilarities. And, embracing and tolerating our commonalities and differences -- rejecting dislike and hate -- in my opinion would be a way that transgender, transsexual, gender nonconforming individuals could best embrace the humanity of treating others like we want to be treated.

Angelique Erickson said...

I am a transsexual whom has known literally my whole life that I was born in the wrong gender.I don't wish to step on any toes,but know quite a number of purported transsexuals who suddenly came to the understanding that they are trans,while never having had an inkling,no past experience of being horrified when puberty came and our body and voice started changing,no intense urge and need to wear the clothing we know should be ours,and how right it felt once we were dressed,like a transsexual experiences.Of trying to rip their offending genitals off because you hated them so much like I did at age eight.Nor do real transsexuals argue so vehemently about the use of the term transsexual that those who came to the conclusion of their being one are so willing to do.I am a transsexual.If others don't like it,or my choice in self describing who I see myself as...Too bad.

Angelique Erickson

Autumn Sandeen said...

Quote (emphasis added):

I do not hate transvestites but I know what needy, greedy, manipulative assholes they are because I was tricked by one.

One?

It sure sounds like a lasting prejudice against a group of people based on a your experience with one trans person.

Sadly, I can't imagine you'd be comfortable writing something similar comment about women, African-Americans, disabled people, or veterans if it were one woman, African-American, disabled person, or veteran who horribly towards you.

In the brick-and-mortar world, if you met me, you'd know not only that I wouldn't cause you harm, and leave our meeting being aware that I'd sacrifice and go to jail to protect your civil rights. You are a human being, and as such you deserve to be treated with decency and respect.

But more importantly, somehow we need to embrace MLK Jr.'s messages on mutuality and living with each other:

"All [people] are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality."

And...

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

Lastly, I'm not a transvestite, and honestly, you already know that. Even by the old Harry Benjamin Scale you cited, I'd be a rated as a 5, and not as a 4.

Elizabeth said...

@Autumn

You do not want surgery sweetie so what are you. No better than Type IV under the Benjamin standards but then you know what you are.

Trying to equate racism with the fight between those transsexuals that want nothing to do with the term transgender and no relationship with transvestites is beneath even you but then it isn't is it.

In all honest I am unsure what you are. You are certainly not like any transsexuals I have ever know but then you are one of the "new order" of subjective transsexuals that use the label transsexual when it benefits them but put it down in order to represent the transgender forever paradigm that you support.

There is no benefit for transsexuals under transgender but then you know that.

I actually do not hate transvestites but I do know exactly what they are and how manipulative they are. I actually could care less if some transvestite wants breasts and goes out in public but they will never be allowed in the workplace unless they go stealth. I do not care as long as they are not claiming they are female or women with a penis because they are not.

There are shades of gray in gender dysphoria but even Harry was unsure where the line was but he did allow for them to have hormones and I have no issue with that. What I have an issue with is the blatant attempt to redefine the sex characteristics that define female because a penis is not one of them.

WPATH and SOC are what they are. A generalization aimed at primarily the older transitioners. You will notice the they differentiate between transsexual, transgender and gender nonconforming. I will not argue with someone over their sex identity if they have SRS. If you had SRS I would consider you female although I doubt most of your radfem lesbian pals would.

Why would I write a comment like my needy comment about transvestites about anyone else? That is an isolated comment about a personal experience that I know has happened to many others like me.

Unlike you I am accepted by women, African Americans, the disabled or a veteran. By the way the husband of mine I commented about was one of most decorated Marines in Vietnam and we are friendly because I raised his daughter after his first wife left over the transvestism.

Your life is an open book of self promotion where Autumn is the center of attention. My life has been considerably different and productive although I do recognize your service to the country in the Navy. I was also married to a Captain in the US Navy and my dad was a Captain in the US Navy. In fact I was one of the top consultants to the US Navy for years so I know all about Autumn Sandeen.

Unfortunately for you even if you get your birth certificate changed everyone will know you still have a penis.

As a women I set precedents for women not transsexuals because I stopped being transsexual in early 1970. You will always be transgender in your mind because you cannot let go of your male side and that is manifested in your need to keep your penis.

What you fail to realize and conveniently omit is that transsexuals to not go to a doctor for diagnosis of transsexualism. Transsexuals go to the doctor to get the solution which is SRS. We know before we go we are girls and if we do not then I am sorry but then I guess you are transgendered.

So what is your story? Did you know? Enjoy your life as a transgender penis carrying man. I realize the maintenance issues are tough and not being able to pee on trees must be tough to lose.

Anonymous said...

I am so saddened by this... women should really support one another not judge each other. This behavior should have stopped in junior high. We are all human underneath our outside exteriors.we all have the same on the inside( flesh, bone,blood) no matter what we we claim as our very personal identity. society has used many things to split up our support for one another. I think its time we all stepped back and think about it before we turn into exactly what we all want to avoid a selfish judgmental person.

Anonymous said...

Elizabeth,
you sweetie are nothing more than a selfish judgmental bigot... who thrives on putting others down and is only in it for your own agenda...I thought you were different, caring , concerned and generous...I guess your true colors have now come out and they are not part of the beautiful rainbow . they are dark and wicked and belong to the dark side.
amen
I hope you are happy with what you have done. you just given the Christians and Mr. Phelps people more reason to hate us all.. thank you for setting back the movement 100 years darling.

Abby said...

Hi Angelique, sounds to me like a terrible existance you've endured, I'm pleased you've managed to get through it. Great name by the way, seems really familiar. Whilst you're sharing, tell us a bit about yourself, how old where you when you transitioned? married?, ever sleep with a chick?

You know, the basics that all us TS folk get caught up on. just so we know where you're coming from.

Hope you're doing well.

Elizabeth said...

@Anonymous

My policy is normally not to publish anonymous posts but these two are being posted because I want to respond.

First anon post.

I support women and those of us born transsexual that desire to be complete women and join our fellow women in the struggle for equality for women. I am no longer transsexual and yes I am judgmental when i see people like you trying to redefine what a female and a woman is because I and many others risked our lives to reach our goal and you and your pathetic friends want to want to keep your precious little penis. If that is judgmental then guilty as charged but then you are also judgmental because you want to judge women by a lower standard so you and your fellow men in dresses can claim womanhood. A man in a dress with a penis who wants to keep it is a man no matter how you "judge it".

Anon post #2

How have I given the Christians and Phelps any reason to hate anyone. I refuse to abide by your transgender mantra that we all are the same and there is some group out that that actually gives a crap about transsexuals.

All women born transsexuals need is the right to be recognized as women and if you think some fucking asshole in a dress with his penis and balls promotes that idea then you are a complete and total dumb shit.

The only movement I might have harmed is the movement to allow you men in dresses the right to claim womanhood while packing a penis and I hope to god i have.

Do you know that Pat Robinson openly supported transsexuals until you asshole transgender fools showed up confusing the issues? It is you and your transgender idiots that are setting back whatever movement that exists the 100 years.

Wait for the backlash when John Q Public in the United States realizes transvestites and other men in dresses are trying to gain similar status in the workplace as transsexuals have earned. The poor bastards do not even realize by using transgender they open the door to transvestites. I certainly hope they do realize the error of their ways and replace transgender with transsexual which unfortunately most people are one and the same.

As I have said before why don't you assholes in your so called transgender movement speak honestly to the public and ADMIT your proposals are for transvestites and cross-dressers primarily. We all know why it is not mentioned. If it was mentioned any legislation would be crushed.

You disguise it under the guise of gender dysphoria and a line of bullshit that people are beginning to see through. When the shit hits the fan you will be hurting transsexuals and not vice versa because you are the ones lying about your intentions. Tell the truth about the transgender agenda for once. Silly me we all know men never tell the truth when they want their way and the ability to jack off in the wife's panties while claiming they are girls for the day.

Anne said...

Liz, I cannot believe you have allowed yourself to be baited by Loonie Junie.

JuneBug...You realy need to learn a new screed. Talk about broken records, LMAO...."nothing more than a selfish judgmental bigot... who thrives on putting others down and is only in it for your own agenda...I thought you were different..."

same ol' same ol'...

Anonymous said...

I was about to get as angry as these two anonymous posters until I read what my sisters have said. Finally I encounter women who are prepared to tell you transvestite fuckwits to accept that you are nothing at all like transsexuals and we are NOT the same.

I agree 100% with these women and I thank them for making their existence known and for airing their feelings.

Cassandraspeaks

Autumn Sandeen said...

Referring to me as "sweetie" Elizabeth? It's disheartening that you're trying to speak down to me and diminish me; that you're using phrasing that means to frame me as a lesser human being to you. I consider you to be fully human, and not deserving of diminishment with intentionally degrading language.

As for being accepted as a woman, I've contributed to Feministe, spoken at this past summer's BlogHer convention, as well as at Harvard, and have had government agencies change my gender marker from male-to-female. I'm pretty much accepted as female by the same kinds of cisgender people who accept you as female; I'm pretty much rejected as female by the same kinds of cisgender people who reject you as female.

I was diagnosed with the diagnosis you refer to as transsexualism not quite a decade ago. I had to meet the same criteria, and obtain the same types of surgery letters, that other transsexual people have had to obtain under HBSOC, version 6, for my recent surgery.

But surgery isn't what made you or me female, Elizabeth. Surgery is a tool that many of us need to affirm our gender identities; surgery simply cannot create male or female gender in and of itself.

Elisabeth, even you must realize that you're opinions about transsexuality are on the losing side of history. The WPATH SOC doesn't support your point of view on the diagnosis of transsexuality, and legislative bills like California's AB 433 will no doubt become law in more and more states.

There have been benefits for transsexual people with transgender activism. That in many states it's illegal to fire you because of your medical history with transsexualism is because of transgender community activism. If your state changed their policy to allow you to change you gender marker on your driver's license within the last 10-years, it's no doubt because of transgender community activism.

It's because of people who identify as both transgender and transsexual that me have legislative movement.

Lastly, if we're ever going to see Gender Identity Disorder or Gender Dysphoria removed from the DSM -- to change transsexualism from a mental disorder with medical considerations to a medical conditions with perhaps some mental health considerations, it's going to take a broad spectrum of more people than just transsexual people to accomplish that. And transgender community activism, or redefined under some other name to represent broad-based trans activism, is what it will no doubt take.

Well, you know my positions, and I know yours, and we both know in what direction trans civil rights and trans healthcare is moving. So, I guess I'll stop bothering you in this thread.

Deena said...

Oh Sweetie now you can wear a purple heart for being wounded in action.

Miz Know-It-All said...

Autumn... My My My! So many many words! You know if one got to become a woman on words alone then you my dear would have won the Miss America contest by now!

But what the heck! I'm in of an open mind this evening so tell you what! In late august of every year I go to an event that late in the evening features a good deal of public nudity... At the hight of the evening(s) there may be as many as 500 souls wandering round just as naked as the day they were born... including yours truly!

So Iets put all those pretty inspiring words to the test shall we? I here by give you an open invite for next August! Come on over to the mountain state, shuck those bloomers for the weekend with the rest of us and lets just see how well received I still got a penis but I really am a woman is accepted by a few hundred drunk men... I'm betting they'll get right with the program! Don't you?

MIKA

Miz Know-It-All said...

Oh and Autumn?

As for that comment "There have been benefits for transsexual people with transgender activism." Might I ask? Is that why the last three states that do not allow post operative women with a transsexual history to correct their birth certificate so they can go on to a normal life have been lobbied so gosh darn hard by all you hard working trans activists? 

Oh shoot! That's right! Getting on with your life as a straight woman really isn't part of the LGBT agenda is it! Oppsie... What as I thinking! Straight women wanting to get married to men! Forget I ever asked!

You're right! It was so much better that you activists spent so much time making sure that in the land of fruits and nuts anyone can now get papers to say a pecker is a pussy and a pussy is a pecker!  Straight marriage? Straight women? Silly me! I almost forgot for a second there that I am and always will be a gay man in your world!

Whew close one wasn't it!

Anne said...

@Sandeen...."transvestite healthcare" has does nothing more than change its named to transgender in a blatant effort justify cross dressing and hormone assisted gender-bending, (SHE-MALES), by conflating crossdressig and transvestism with the a totally distinct MEDICAL CONDITION with a proven treatmet protocol, leading to a CURE.

I had my paper work changed in the early 70's with absolutely NO HELP from your penis packing pals. In fact I had the Attorney General of on of the most socially consrvative states in the Union recognise my MEDICAL CONDITION as not only VALID but CURED! This also occured in the early 70's while you were still beating your meat looking at "dirty pictures".

SPARE US your psuedo-psycho/social gender babble. It simply will not fly here.

Anne said...

@Ms.KIA...Where is this Party in August? Sounds like fun!

Elizabeth said...

I am sure all who read this blog remember my old friend "She Said" the Butch Dyke claiming to be a medical student and a PhD candidate and studying transsexuals both old and young.

Now there is really no reason for any Butch Dyke radical feminist to be on my blog. There is a reason for a certain radfem Butch Dyke to be on a certain radfem Butch Dyke site which hates transsexuals because it became apparent She Said hated even kids.

She Said has posted on said radfem Butch Dyke site under the name "Kate" with a link to my blog which I find disturbing but typical of She Said or Kate.

I appreciate a friend pointing out the link on their site posted by She Said Kate and providing the confirmation that She Said Kate was a lying sack of shit when claiming to be both a medical student and a PhD candidate studying transsexuals.

I have nothing against radfem Butch Dykes so I am not providing a link to their blog. No need to raise a ruckus and besides they provide the knowledge of She Said Kate.

Joann said...

There is nothing more fun to see than Anne and Carolyn/CassandraSpeaks having their asses handed to them by real women on a radfem blog. GallusMag sure has them pegged for what they are and treated them with as much respect as you yo-yos treat the lowly "TeeGees".

Really should put down the kook-aid before trying to score points in radfem land, silly boys! LMGDMFAO!!!!!!

Elizabeth said...

@Joann

If there is anyone that has zero relevance in this world it is radfem Butch Dykes which is a contradiction in terms in its incorrect verbiage.

Radical feminism is a current theoretical perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on an assumption that "male supremacy" oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society.

All a radfem Butch Dyke wants is to replace the male oppressor with the Butch Dyke oppressor. In the real world the only difference between a misogynist man and radfem Butch Dyke is one has a penis and often the power to hurt women and the other is a powerless and useless and provides zero benefit to society. At least a misogynist might realize the error of his ways and benefit women. All you radfem butch dykes add no value to society in general and are a waste of oxygen because nobody can stomach your pathetic look at the world except another useless radfem butch dyke.

Just what benefit is a radfem butch dyke? Not much unless one is a lesbian that wants to replace some misogynist man as an oppressor with some mannish butch dyke asshole as an oppressor.

Let me think of all the radfem butch dykes that have contributed to society in a positive way. well that was quick because there are none.

It really is a pathetic scene the radfem butch dyke lives in. Kind of reminds one of the boys only clubs men like except the penis is replace by your strap-on or maybe you are asexual or prefer to fist one another to prove your manliness.

The irony in its entirety is beyond hilarious. A masculine, male, dominant, mannish butch dyke who hate themselves and the gender roles of women complaining about a patriarchal society dominated by men. If you assholes had a dick, how many wish they did, you would be the exact people you supposedly hate.

If it was not so pathetic I would laugh my ass off. I take that back I am laughing my ass off. You clowns should partner with the trans idiots that play a girl but keep their penis because after all you are women that play at being men and keep your pussies.

Almost seems like a match made in hell doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

@ Joann I don't see that the exchange at gendertrender does any more than expose gallus mag as disengenuous. I realise that to outsiders the reality of my life may sound hard to believe. However truth is truth and Mags accusations of lie does not change the truth. As such it doesn't affect me in any way. So your glee at some perceived "win" is irrelevant.

CS

Anne said...

Wellsaid, Liz. Iwas thinking the EXACT SAME THING MYSELF.

Bull, (butch), Dykes are just dickless, wanna-be men who lack the balls to do what needs to be done to actually BE men.

The few that I have had the misfortune to encounter are total assholes, playing at a fantasy of wht they imagine to be "real" men. Much like the "wanna-be" women, TG

Anne said...

Interestingly Liz, I came up with almost the EXACT SAME thinking. This is hilarious. Here we have "dickless, wanna-be men" who act out the worst of male stereotypes, in a TG-like caracature of what THEY believe/fantasize it IS to actually be men.

The irony is staggering.

Anne said...

Then.....This same "wanna-be MAN" acting out the very worst of masculine traits, has the timerity to KNOCK, (disparage) that very role that (s)he is so POORLY emulating, (Or is it "manulating"?)

Go figure.

Anne said...

Damn....I actually got "moderated" over there! I guess the TRUTH hurts. Oh well, since we know they are "visiting" here, I will impose upon your indulgence once again to provide an open forum for my "heresies".

"“Angry..unthinking…knee-jerk… angry… hyperbolic… manic… pathological… ignorance… blind…ludicrous…”….AYUPP. That pretty much sums it up nicely. Oh…I forgot to add SELF LOATHING.

Do you not see the irony in the hyper-male pseudo,”wanna-be macho manliness” of your mannerisms and male like NEED to dominate and oppress women?

In truth you “wanna-be” guys are pathetic. You lack the balls to BE the men that you so poorly pretend act like but denigrate that very “maleness” that you so sadly strive to emmulate.

Your “man-ulating” needs some work laddies. You see acting like total shit eating assholes, won’t make you men and most certainly will not impress other women.

But pul-eeeease, do carry on….without me of course. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Remember, we came in peace.

CYA..wouldn’t wanna BEE YA."

Anonymous said...

It's an interesting tactic they use. Ask a question and dish out a kind word. When the question is answered however honestly attack with verbal ferocity.

I don't particularly care on a personal level because I know the truth of my life so whatever they or anyone else says is of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. Besides I've dished out a few verbal chastisements in my time and so should be prepared to take it when karma comes around.

Respect is a funny thing hard to earn and lost so easily and so quickly.

CS

Foxfire said...

quote from Elizabeth: "What I have an issue with is the blatant attempt to redefine the sex characteristics that define female because a penis is not one of them."

Goddess bless you for that statement! I mean gee, it isn't rocket science. I don't get what's so difficult to comprehend about "woman = vagina, man = penis". Oh and don't forget the corollary: "penis --> vagina does NOT equal lesbian sex."

MKIA, if I happen to be in America next year I would also love to come to the naked party with a hundred drunk men, sounds like my idea of a good time. :)

Abby said...

@foxfire

I dunno, maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics again, but I wonder if you haven't mis-written your comment, or mis-interpreted the statement of Liz's that you quoted?

"WOMAN" does not=vagina, "MAN" does not=penis.

(not in my books anyway, but then I'm just a silly pre-op, what would I know, however, correct me if I'm wrong, I can't remeber LiZ making THAT particular distinction anywhere iether)

Female=vagina, male=penis, most certainly.

And I agree whole heartedly the panis->vagina does NOT = lesbian.

Anne said...

@Abby..I think you pain meds are making your reading comprension "fuzzy".

Please try re-reading 'foxfire's" quote.

Foxfire said...

Maybe I'm not familiar with the local vernacular as I don't live in the States. I am a female woman with a vagina. My boyfriend is a male man with a penis. I'm pretty sure we never confuse which part belongs to the man, even when we are vigorously mashing them together.

Put in simpler terms, girls have innies, boys have outies. Maybe I was just wrong about the rocket science part.

Abby said...

Foxfire's comment could be read (as I did) to mean that if it's got a vagina, it's a woman.

Whilst I DO agree with her latest comment TOTALLY, we ARE the ones discussing blurring and conflation of terms, no?

Maybe WE should be TOTALLY clear and concise about how we word things, so that conflation of terms and blurring of the lines is harder to do.

It's not always WHAT you say, but how someone can use it against you.

And in the words of a wise woman:

You can graft a vagina onto a water Mellon, that DOES NOT make it a woman.

Abby said...

Oh, by the way foxfire, I'm not from the states either, so most probably aren't familiar mine.

Anonymous said...

As for Transgender vs Transsexual medical diagnosis legitimacy. I've only come up with one clear reason that there needs to be a distinction. Most forms of Transgenderism are choices. Transsexualism is a medical condition. People born Transsexual don't choose to be, they ARE. People who cross-dress, drag performers, or who simply choose to live their lives presenting as the opposite sex are not suffering from a birth condition.

It matters. If TG and TS are the same then an insurance company can deny coverage for a lack of clear diagnosis and medical necessity, conflating it to a lifestyle choice. There needs to be research done to prove that a Transsexual person suffers from a congenital birth condition, until such time its better to have a clear distinction between the two terms.

BlackSwan
BlackSwan

Amber Powell said...

I have read a lot and heard commentary from many different points of view. I have no axe to grind and in a real sense what I am matters less to me than simply finding a life that makes me happy. I am one of those late transitioners that Elizabeth seems to sometimes pity and sometimes despise. I dont fit very well into her paradigm for one though. I did not leave my wife, I did not abandon my children (my daughter is an adult) I dont think I am suddenly a woman. I never cross dressed, when I did it was not sexual although I sometimes felt very sexy. I dont have any invented story to tell which makes it sound as if I was a frustrated early transitioner wanna be. I never thought of myself as a girl, I was always clearly a boy although equally clearly not like most of the other boys. My adult life was - difficult personally - but not without moments of happiness and I was a succesful man by most standards who took advantage of but was unaware of male privilege.

I have been on hormones for well over a year, I live full time as a woman and while I am likely not always accepted as a woman I do work very hard to look feminine and be as invisible as possible. I do plan for some surgeries but genital surgery is not high on my list. Perhaps that is an age thing, sex is not really all that interesting to me and I have been celibate for some time.

Now heres the thing. I am not at all like Elizabeth, her experience is totally different from mine. I can understand her frustration with people like myself making all sorts of claims that seem outrageous. While I dont fit the criteria for being "female" or a "woman" I am most definetly no longer much like a man either. I feel I am much more than a man in a dress. I am not a transvestite in my mind as my transition has no sexual component. I dont like being referred to as transgender as they seem to be mostly sex people which I am not. If I am transexual I am most definetly NOT a transexual like Elizabeth. This is not, in any way a criticism or a complement - it is just a fact.

So I wrote this long and likely boring post to make a point. Not all people who transition fit the traditional definition of transexual. Not all late transitioners are of a type and not all are selfish or totally self absorbed. Some, like me merely discover that life as a woman is much more comfortable and makes us personally much happier. I live my life much like other women even though all my body parts dont match and may never do so. In public I am always referred to in the feminine which makes me feel happy. My female friends consider me to be - at least enough of a woman - that they treat me as such. I have harmed and do not harm anyone.

I dont know if a woman can have a penis, a transexual certainly can and I dont really know if it is all that important anyway. I do know a lot of people on the internet get very angry about these things which dont really seem all that important.

For whatever its worth I was diagnosed as a transexual, I really only cared because it meant I could be prescribed hormones. I could not care less about my birth certificate although I have changed my drivers license for reasons of safety and security.

My point is, people like me exist. More than a few I suspect. Are we possibly people with a condition, not the same as early onset transexuals but still with a legitimate problem that needs treating?

Amber Anne Powell

Deena said...

Amber AP you wrote "Some, like me merely discover that life as a woman is much more comfortable and makes us personally much happier.". But you seem to disavow any experiences or thoughts prior to your discovery. Yet you also do not explain what precipitated that sudden startling notion. I don't mean to be facetious but it almost sounds like you woke up one morning and had an "aha" experience. You left out something because the dots don't seem to connect.

Anne said...

Amber. You were "declared/diagnosed" TS based on te "new, PC, GLAAD Approved WPATH definition which is nothng more than a complete,total, and INTENTIONAL conflaton of two distinct terms.

The intent of this intentional conflation is obvious in that it allows folks like you to "choose" to be "transsexual" because, " I dont like being referred to as transgender as they seem to be mostly sex people which I am not."

Hmmmmm....?

Van Buren said...

"I never cross dressed, when I did it was not sexual"~ Amber

Anyone else see a contradiction here?

"Not all people who transition fit the traditional definition of transexual."~ Amber

Well, at least that part's accurate.

"Some, like me merely discover that life as a woman is much more comfortable and makes us personally much happier."~ Amber

Apparently that's all it takes!... total Psycho-sexual Inversion (IE girl brain/sex identity, boy body) none of that is important, anyone can do and be what they want now, because, as the mainstream population now understands; we're all just different levels of freak.

"I do know a lot of people on the internet get very angry about these things which dont really seem all that important."~ Amber

You ooze ignorance AND arrogance, un-important to someone who's never had to actually deal with the real condition maybe.

"My point is, people like me exist. More than a few I suspect. Are we possibly people with a condition, not the same as early onset transexuals but still with a legitimate problem that needs treating?"~ Amber

No-one disputes that people "like you" exist and the rest of your paragraph is pretty close except for the place you wrote "early onset" because although you were diagnosed and treated as on, people "like you" are nothing like ANY type of transsexual.

Have a great day!

Anne said...

There is no question in my mind that folks like Amber have issues.

It is also quite clear that those "issues" differ significantly from those issues associated with a trans-sexual condition.

Those differences have been explored and discussed at some length on this blog, on my blog and on the blogs of others.

That signigicant DIFFERENCES exist is NOT the issue. The issue is the exteremely negative RESULTS of conflating these very DIFFERENT conditions.

Insisting on a "one size fits all" or "equality" is sheer madness.

It should be MORE than obvious that the needs of a 30 or 40 year post-op will be much different than those of a 40 or 50 y/o later in life "transitioner"...whose needs will differ significantly from those of a full time X-dressing "transgender" or "trans-woman".

It really all comes down to a diagnosis. How can there be no distinction between someone like "Amber" who has "discovered/decided" later in life, that it feels better or "more comfortable" living the role of a woman....and a pre-pubescent child who absolutely KNOWS that their sexual morphology, (their GENITALS), are ALL WRONG?

Van Buren said...

Anne,
Please forgive my ignorance, my question comes only because I'm not there yet and so I can't answer the question myself.

You mention "the needs" of a 30-40 year post-op, I wonder what they might be?

Deena said...

Relax Van .... 45 years from now you will understand.

Anne said...

ahh...

hmmmm....

well......

I'll have to think about that....

Van Buren said...

Ah, I'm sorry, is there more than one Anne here?....

I didn't think I asked Deena anything.

I don't need to "relax" Deena, and interestingly I can't seem to find anything about your history including whether or not you fit into that 30-40 year post-op bracket yourself and therefore know or could answer the question yourself.

I am one of those young "impressionable" pre-ops who's conversed quite a bit with Anne, I have a bit of respect for some of the things she has to say and I've listened to her and others here tell me that SRS "cured" her condition.

Now I would think if "cured" of it, you'd no longer have "needs" relative to it (I have been wrong before which is why I asked the question), so If there are needs, I'm keen to know what they might be.

Kindly keep out of it and let Anne answer the question I asked HER.

Deena said...

Oh Gosh Van I didn't realize you were so sensitive. It is OK with me if you want to play at being internet content cop but just don't expect me or anyone else to watch a private conversation without commenting. If that is what you demand then you need to do a blog of your own and moderate comments.

I don't wish you any harm but I saw your question as facetious and laden with venom. Perhaps I misinterpreted your intentions. I am a ditz and often wrong about these matters. Perhaps you can clarify what you need to know about women.

Anne said...

Well...OK. Having given this soe extensve thought, (not my strong point), I guess I wouuld start with about 30,000,000,000.00
hMMM...LET'S SEE...A NEW Benz, Eternal youth, A new Cessna Citation, with pilot, and ahhhh.....World Peace.

Van Buren said...

@Anne, kinda thought it'd be something like that ;-P

@Deena, YOU saw MY comment as facetious and laden with venom so you YOU commented, and ME, I! am the Internet content cop?...

Say it with me folks hypocrite!

I'm not sensitive at all, however I would have thought your extensive knowledge of women would have taught you that we don't like to be spoken to condescendingly as you did to me, especially by those whom, for all we know, may be pretenders themselves.

I have had two blogs in fact, the second of which I've only recently made private, would you like an invite?, it's nothing exciting like the stuff here, just boring old me and the things I'm dealing with.

A couple of things:

I don't veiw my self as the Internet content police, I have neither the time or the energy. I do however believe that there should be more accountability for the things people say, because many people who are scared, impressionable, and dealing with a very dangerous condition read this stuff and the freedom from fear of/prosecution means people can and will say things that are false and dangerous.

Sometimes people ask a question they already know the answer to, simply to get information out there.

You said wait 45years and I'll understand.

Time does not bring knowledge or wisdom, experience does.

And no, I don't expect you to WATCH a private conversation, but I do know human nature.

Deena said...

Now now Van don't get all worked up. I told you I'm a ditz. You see you confused me. You claim to be a woman but yet you had asked questions about being one so I was a bit taken back.

Van Buren said...

Oooohhhh!.... You're a ditz!

Oh okay!

I understand, THAT changes EVERYTHING!

Here endith my thread jack, permanently!

My appologies Liz.

Anne said...

Maybe we could clear this up if we just spoke simple English.

Personally, for me, all I need is a warm comfortable home, good food, fresh water, clean air and a good man to share this with.

Fortunately, I am extremely blessed to have been blessed with all of the above. I think that it should be noted that those needs have not really changed in over 40 years.

Rebecca L said...

"You mention "the needs" of a 30-40 year post-op, I wonder what they might be? "

From reading blogs like these, bashing people with different experiences of being trans seems to be the norm. Doesn't really seem well adjusted to me.. I think I grew out of that behaviour first or second year being of post op. I really dread the day I hit the 30 year mark and I supposedly will start acting out like that again. Or maybe, hopefully, it's a generation thing

Deena said...

@ Rebecca ... No need to wait. You just did an excellent job of it when you said "I really dread the day I hit the 30 year mark and I supposedly will start acting out like that again."

Van Buren said...

@Rebecca

I think that if that is what you reduce this discussion to (the "bashing" of people with different experiences) then you fail to true meaning of this discussion and the importance of that meaning, to people born transsexual.

Further, you suggest you're "better" than those who "bash" others and that you "grew out of that", yet in the next sentence you do just that.

Most would call you a hypocrite and I personally think they wouldn't be wrong.

Unfortunatly Rebecca, SAYING that you're a better person, that you've taken the moral high ground, that you ARE something, or that you've DONE something, does NOT make that the truth.

And THAT IS the point of this discussion.

We live in a world were actions speak louder than words.

Anne said...

See, here is the 'thang', Rebecca. What you might describe as "trans" people most likely is NOT what I would describe, or even remotely resemble an individual who might have undergone genital reconstruction surgery, 30 or 40 years ago.

You see "Rebecca", these older folks NEVER were "trans". We suffered from a MEDICAL MALADY which was subsequenty "cured" or "corrected" as a result of said surgery.

I don't see anybody "bashing" trans-people. I see people calling IDIOTS, MORONS, and LOSERS, just what they ARE. And I also see these so called, self-described "trans" people, baiting, taunting and disparaging those very few women of history who have made the effort to speak out against the TG Borg Hive think that is "Occupying" the blogosphere.