Friday, August 23, 2013

Bradley Manning

I have spent a lot of my life working as a consultant for the DOD and the US Navy. Some of the most important work I have done in my life, after Houston, was the work I did with these people. It is taken me all over the world and has resulted in me landing on Nimitz Class Carriers and having my ass catapulted off them. It has also resulted in my presence several times in the Middle East in combat situations.

I was safe and sound tucked away in 100,000 tons of steel but I worked closely with the men and women that flew the missions and made the ship run smoothly and these young men and women and even boys and girls are examples of what is good. They do their jobs and both the pilots and the deck crews risk their lives daily working long shifts.

You might be surprised to know that from the top Officers down they absolutely hate war because they are the ones that fight it. I have watched the helicopter crews sneak into the dark with those special people on board. I have watched as those same crews scrambled to rescue others that were wounded or down and the one thing you do not do is betray the trust of the person next to you in the plane, next to you on the deck, next to you in Command, next to you in a ground fire fight, or next to you in Intelligence. It is the one single code that if broken is beneath contempt and Manning broke that code. He betrayed those he served with and he betrayed his country.

His leaked information has been found in the hands of terrorist operatives and whether it helped them and hurt our men and women is never going to be revealed but clandestine operations were halted and loss of intelligence can lead to our soldiers dying.

Lest you forget who they are fighting maybe you need to be reminded. They are fighting "animals" that think they have the right to shoot a girl in the head for wanting an education; they believe they have the right to burn girls alive as they attend school; they believe they have the right to throw acid in a girls face because she does not fit their image of how she should be; they believe deliberately murdering women and children is justifiable in the name of their god; they believe it is a woman's fault if she is raped; women are considered behind their animals. They are bullies, murderers, and exclusively male unless they can dupe a woman into a suicide run.

When we pull out I would not want to be female in Afghanistan. War is horrible but our soldiers are not allowed to shoot first under any circumstances.  I bet you did not know that. Under engagement rules they even have to announce themselves when they engage known terrorists in a house. Our Special Ops people have to treat terrorists "kindly" and it has killed many of our Special Operations people.  Manning blew the whistle on the friendly fire incident where the reporter(s) were accidentally killed but it was already under investigation. In combat friendly fire is as dangerous as the enemy sometimes in a firefight. Combat is chaos and mistakes are made. Some of the worst cases of PTSD are soldiers that found out they killed comrades accidentally.

The DOD takes friendly fire incidents seriously and they are investigated, particularly since the death of the former NFL player. Manning was arrested and stopped while planning to release more intelligence and nobody knows how damaging that could have been.

Manning was lucky he was tried in a Military Tribunal and not a Federal Court because his 35 years will probably get him out in 7+ years where he would have served the full 35 if tried in a Federal Court. The other thing you need to realize is 35 years was a lot of time and he got that because the Judge certainly has a better idea of what damage he did so take that into account. Military Judges are not known to hand out stupid sentences.

Manning wanted to be famous and was certainly after attention when he leaked these documents to Wikileaks. He could have gotten out of the military quite easily by simply telling them he was gay which was what he said and his lawyer said today. DADT was still in effect when he leaked these documents. If he is truly "trans" that would have also gotten him out. Why did't he try to get out?

Now we have Mr. Manning claiming to be transgender but it seems to be unknown which branch of transgender he wants to hang his hat on. I realize most of the Transgender Activists are too freaking stupid to realize this is not a transgender issue or person whose side you want to take unless of course you are an anarchist or flaming left-wing liberal that believes the US is evil and some kind of Colonial power intent on ruling the world.

Manning will not get any hormones or surgery nor will he transition in his military prison because he is still in the service. To most Americans Manning is not a sympathetic individual because of his actions but when both he and his lawyer imply that his so-called transgender situation was the root cause of his problems then one needs to say bullshit because that is what it is.

The military will never let him transition or get hormones but I guess he could become someones "bitch" in the slammer and get some "experience" as a woman but somehow I kind of doubt that was in his plans but then again I could be wrong.

In my opinion Manning got off easy but then I expect him shortly to claim he is transsexual so he can get some sympathy. I can see all the transgender activists lining up to celebrate another Transgender Icon and this time many of you will be correct because he "really" is just like you and you can thankfully have him.


Anonymous said...

Reports say manning did send an email to a superior about those feelings before the leak and it was ignored.

Chat transcripts about the same issue were published on boing boing two years ago

Whether Manning turns out to be transsexual or transgender I can't know. There is a documented history though, this isn't sudden.


Anonymous said...

Awful case. I am trans and former military. I won't celebrate a thing about any of it. They will never be an icon of anything from my perspective. This hurts the overall Trans community to have us all lumped with a basket case.

Anonymous said...

Manning has made some terrible decisions in his life. Not least of which was his decision to betray his brothers in arms and his own country. The responsibility for those decisions belong exclusively to Bradley Manning.

I do not see it as society's responsibility, (in the form of my tax dollars), to coddle this guy or to indemnify him from his bad choices in life. I am told that he is even pursuing a Presidential pardon.

If you buy that then we should send those three thugs who shot that young Australian jogger, "because they were bored", to Hawaii for rehab instead of Death Row.

Unfortunately because of the ideological mind-set of our liberal president, I foresee this guy being transferred to the Federal Prison System for humanitarian, (read political), reasons, and getting a free sex change, just like that wife murderer in Massachusetts.

Michelle Leanne said...

I have absolutely no sympathy for this Manning character. This fabricated "trans" identity is just another attempt to generate attention. He better not get one nickel of "support" for any of his issues from the prisons or from any other trans friendly organization. Any organization that is stupid enough to stand behind this "transgender" circus will certainly do more harm than good to all the truly deserving individuals.

Rosenkreuz said...

It's callous and I certainly oppose our interventions abroad as a leftist, but the fact is, shit happens in wars. Atrocities, mistakes, ass-covering, it happens. If you hate that atrocities happen in war, then don't go to war. And barring that, if you have a problem, go through offical channels, and barring that, go through reputable media as opposed to fly-by-night sources like Wikileaks, especially when you have nothing near as explosive as anything Daniel Ellsberg produced (You lived directly through that era so you have much more first hand knowledge).

The United States has had some worrying trends (NSA, Patriot Act, etc etc) but we're not Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia no matter what my compatriots on the left tell you.

I think 7 years is a fair sentence - regardless of whether she* intended to harm American interests, she did to some extent, and while the stuff she uncovered was pretty shady, most Americans don't really care that a few civilians died who shouldn't have because most Americans support the objective of the wars. In the end of the day, she violated her oath to the Constitution, and undermined the integrity of the American State, which no self-respecting government can tolerate. Like it not, a government has certain prerogatives that individuals do not, and while I may not like it, I can accept it. It's like why I roll my eyes when leftists talk about supporting this or that dictator in Latin America - sure it's horrible and wrong but the United States is also fighting an existential ideological battle with the Soviets, and that's just what states do when confronted with these kinds of things. Do I condone it? No; Russia doesn't justify the things in Shock Doctrine. But it's understandable.

Also I feel you on our rules of engagement. We *actively* try not to kill civilians. Few armies in history have ever done that.

Basically in short, while I can sympathize with the fact that Manning was upset with the policies and practices of the United States Government, and my political orientation leads me to to take her accusations seriously, I also accept that a government has certain prerogratives and can and should forsake transparency for national security priorities (even if said priorities are misplaced, a few leakers and e-activists are not the ones to decide this).

*I'm gonna tentatively, for now give "Chelsea" the benefit of the doubt that she is in fact, transsexual, because i've been burned badly by assuming otherwise, but I'm obviously not solid in this conviction.

Just Jennifer said...

An interesting perspective on the subject. I was aware that Manning identified as some variety of "transgender" long before yesterday. It was hardly a secret. But it is interesting how trans activists who show little or no interest in the case are suddenly obsessed with making sure Manning is not "misgendered."

Anonymous said...

Manning may of may not be transsexual. Perhaps the benefit of the doubt applies here.

I read recently a much higher percentage of transgendered than cis-gendered Americans join the military. Trans people join hoping to resolve their internal conflicts. The trouble with ego dystonic gender dysphoria is the build-up of rage over years of gender non-conformity abuse and intense conflict over concepts of right and wrong seen through the lens of their experience. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but if you're angry, hurt, and conflicted, if you can't face and accept who you are, you are more likely throw the moral baby out with the bath water and make bad choices.

If Manning is transsexual, I hope she receives fair and proper treatment. Withholding treatment would additional punishment, cruel, vindictive and unbecoming an institution operating in the name of the American people.

- an old aunty

Kathryn Dumke said...

So, another one who takes the road down the victimization route. Whether not you applaud what he did or not it was against the law. Trying to explain unlawful behavior by claiming to be Chelsea is like saying if I could only have been Chelsea this would not have happened. What a crock of waste.

Autumn Sandeen said...

My own take on the story of Chelsea Manning coming out is here.

Chelsea's coming out statement instead was all about here and her wants and needs. There was no humility or respect for transsexual and/or transgender folk in her coming out statement.

The harm she's doing to the trans servicemembers serving in silence, who just like LGB servicemembers prior to DADT being repealed, want to serve openly with honor and distinction. Chelsea has linked those trans servicemembers with trans as a pathology -- "gender identity disorder" per the now superseded DSM-IV TR. By not acknowledging that there are transsexual and transgender servicemembers currently serving with honor and distinction that haven't and aren't going to release classified material to media, she's left us all with the meme that transgender and/or transsexual people are too mentally unstable to serve in the military.

I will forcefully respect her public desire to be called Chelsea and her public desire to be referred to with female pronouns. I will defend her in that to my last breath, were that required. But, that’s pretty much only because I treat others the way I want others to my trans peers and treat me…because I go to bat for my peers in trans community in the same way I want others to go to bat for my trans peers and me. It’s not at all because I have great respect at this point in time for Chelsea herself. Basically I’m standing behind trans community as a whole rather than standing behind Chelsea as an individual.

Chelsea, as a sibling in both military and trans community, hasn’t earned my respect.

Anonymous said...

Argued the other way, it's the repression, being forced under penalty of punishment to hide who you are, gay or trans, causing the pathology.

It's odd how our experiences often don't lead us to a more forgiving and less judgmental nature.

-an old aunty

Rosenkreuz said...

Oh fuck off, "Autumn". Say what you want about the rightness or wrongnness of Chelsea's actions, she has more integrity in a finger or toe than you have in your entire body, missing balls and all. Seriously, fuck off. And I love the whole mentally unstable meme too, they did that to Ellsberg too, or tried to.

Anyway, this is another example of American militarism shooting itself in the foot. If I were running a military, I would NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER let an untreated transsexual in, but the military needs bodies because they're pissing away their first line in wars they don't need to fight. The military is an ultrastressful environment in the best of conditions, and you're gonna put a gender dysphoric individual in that mess. Hell no.

Anonymous said...

Sandeen, If the military doesn't take diabetics and no one seems to be upset why should they take "trans" people? People with a chronic condition requiring medication are not people they want to recruit, that's fair.


Anonymous said...

Really? Is it asking too much that once, just once! Transsexuality ne the meaningless term "trans" these days be represented in the media by someone who is not as crazy as an effing bed bug?

I mean set aside the whole right or wrong thing to what he did... I have my own opinions about the American military and they are going to stay just that, my opinions... That said I need to add that I have nothing but the highest respect for those who serve our country, and poor soldier or not. Bradly Manning is in fact a soldier, and he will remain a soldier. Sworn by none other than himself to be bound to the military and their rules and their laws to the day he is finally dishonorably discharged. So what the hell is or was he expecting to gain by upping the ante and playing the gender confused card? Like that is going to make one bit of difference where he is going? Heck I'm an old school hippie chick but hells bells, even I have that much of a grasp on the separate world that is the military!

Playing the confused gender card at this late date is not going to get him squat! Much less hormones. It is not going to get him addressed as anything other than Pvt Manning no matter what he changes his first name to. As for pronouns... Really? For the moment forget the TG communities unending arrogance in trying to control how other humans experience them. No one in Leavenworth is ever going to call a fellow swinging dick "her" or "she!" He is a he, and he is going to remain "a he" till the day he walks out that door and that is not going to change... Even unless he actually starts a real transition and completes it... Something that he himself has made all but impossible for at least the next seven years... or more!

So what has he really done by this... well lets look at the media storm he has unleashed! By him saying that he is a she simply because he said so... an assertion that is so effing insane that not a soul on the planet, no matter how PC they may appear to be, is really ever going to buy! (call him she all you want nudnicks but if he pulls down his pants it is a whole other story isn't it?)

So! By his doing this he has done nothing to further himself! Rather he has single-handedly made it all the harder for those kids who really are transsexual to get hormones, get surgery, and move on to a normal life rather than the ghetto of "Other" Because once again... some crazy as shit self-aggrandizing asshole has equated to the media that his having a dick doesn't mean he isn't a female cause he says so! And for this... this "favor" the community is falling all over themselves in support!


Anonymous said...

@ An Old Aunty

Yes it is sad we are not more empathetic and caring to those who may or may not be kin, or so it seems, but really now... how many times have we all rolled over and said... well... I guess... sure... I reckon you're not hurting anyone... Only to find they are:

A: Not at all who they said they were!
B: Bat shit crazy and hell bent on taking the world down with em!
C: Men with a fetish and the desire to force it down others throats.
D: All of the above.

No, I'm afraid this old broad has reached a point in her life where I will bend over backwards again and again to help a sister along the way... but only. ONLY when she has proved to be none of the above by paying the same blood price of admittance we all did. Until then? I am going to stay one cold assed bitch in January to "the community."

Anonymous said...

Manning is a traitor, and nothing makes me happier than knowing that while he is doing time, he will be stuck doing it as a dude.

No wait, one thing would make me happier..... if he had been hanged for treason.


Anonymous said...

My gut feeling is that Manning is the real deal. The fact that he made some stupid and extremely bad choices does negate his/her true nature.

While I strongly disagree with Bradley's actions, and feel that the sentence handed down was appropriate to the crimes and should be served, I do not support providing this traitorous thief with his every desire.

While I am sympathetic to the possibility that Bradley is in fact transsexual, I just cannot condone rewarding him for his crimes. If that happens, every swinging dick needing/wanting a sex change, need only commit some Federal Crime, (like tax evasion), and get sent to prison for a free sex change.

Madness. Utter madness.

Black Swan said...

Elizabeth and the Rest,

I'm not going to comment on whether Manning is a hero or a traitor. I'm more concerned about the war crimes, lies and corporate plunder he exposed. Google "War Crimes Manning Exposed." You'll get the idea.

I'm not going to comment on the actual US justification for going to war with Irak. The pretext of Weapons of Mass Distractions (WMD's) rumors. Well over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND CIVILIAN; MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN. No WMD's rumored were ever found! Manning's leaks forced the US to pull out of Irak early thus reducing or halting the number of civilian casualties. Trivia question for you: What was the literacy rate of the Iraki citizenry compared the US?

I'm not going to comment on how the US sheeple are living in a media/news bubble. You have to travel the world a bit and listen to their news and their media reporting to the idea. To the rest of the world the United States is the monster; the new global economic fascism. Look at what we do to maintain the US Dollar as the global fiat currency.

Some might stay that the United States isn't Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia or Communist China--fair enough. We're much worse with our personal exceptionalism: Google the number of Civilian Casualties from the US wars and foreign policies for the past 75 years. Just from wars alone its more than 10 million. Ad in the results or our efforts to topple foreign governments that refuse to do our bidding ad those deaths in the mix.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean its moral. Because you break a bad law doesn't mean your immoral by contrast. Law is amoral. We hope its backed by reason ethics and moral contemplation, but by definition law is not a moral science.

I'm going to ad how we treated the Japanese during WW2. How come we didn't round up all the US citizens of German origin and put them in camps. Hmmmmmm?

If I start adding our treatment of Native Americans and African Slaves; Yep we are the worst in Human History! If you ad the numbers up. And we love to white was history don't we. Notice the "white" washing. We love to cover it up and only later reveal it after the guilty parties are dead, the Statue of Limitations runs out and we can declassify our dirty deeds. We love to force people sign NDA's so they don't expose such acts and atrocities. We don't like it when folks show us our dirty shorts and make us eat them do we?

Now what I find fascinating about Mark (Samuel Clemons) Twain's classic Huckleberry Finn is America was trying to white wash slavery back then, saying white people tried to uplift the blacks to improve there lot. White guilt and history revisionism at its worst. Twain wanted to make sure we didn't forget it. Trivia for you, how many times did he use the word "nigger" to make that point. And how was the book received by the whites elites at the time? Hmmmmm?

Not to top all that off and we can certainly ad the Asian and Latin American's treatment. Oh sure we can point the finger at other countries, call them terrorists, but when we do it we conveniently comfort and exonerate ourselves with a benign phrase "war is ugly" by doing so I want you to be aware of your own personal monster right here at home when you look in the mirror.

Anonymous said...

MKIA, you'd damn them all to let God sort them out, because some are bad?

The golden rule's a good way to live. It's not my place to judge others, particularly when I don't know the real facts.

- an old aunty

Elizabeth said...

@Black Swan

War Crimes? Are you fucking kidding me you stupid fucking worthless piece of dog shit! They murdered 3000 defenseless and innocent people and have murdered tens of thousands more in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Africa. If our troops kill wrongly they are prosecuted. Friendly fire is a horror of war and is NOT a war crime.

There is no factual basis for the claims of 100,000 civilians killed by the US in Iraq. That is just left wing bullshit. Our problem was we should have not removed Sadaam. We should have helped him so he could kill those assholes himself and per usual you are trying to change the subject of the post.

Travel the world? We are the monster to the rest of the world? In your lunatic left wing world maybe. You do not think assholes that murder little girls and everything else terrorists do as bad? But then maybe they are clients of yours.

Have you ever been in Egypt? I have. have you ever been in Lebanon? I have. Have you ever been in Yemen? I have. Have you ever been in Saudi Arabia? I have? Have you ever been in a combat zone where are men and women are in harm's ways? I have.

You travel in your little sanitized world of perverts that want the thrill of seeing a freak.

We are worse than the Nazi's? You are fucking delusional. You do not have a single clue how the global currency system works and you mention it. We do not artificially inflate or deflate the value of the Dollar. It is traded opening throughout the world on the Forex markets but then you are too fucking stupid to know that. China is the country that manipulates its currency.

How we treated the Japanese? We panicked and interned our own which was bad but again you do not know what you are talking about.

Lord you are so stupid. If this country is so bad and so evil then may I suggest you simply move elsewhere.

By the way dipshit "war is ugly" and that implies we should not get into one unless necessary but then in your revisionist dipshit world we have been evil for 75 years or more.

We were wrong in WWII. Americans in Japan were interned and murdered as were captured soldiers. Do not expect any sympathy from any American that had family that fought the Japanese in the pacific Theater. They burned our POWs alive so take your revisionist bullshit and go somewhere else.

Simply put I can look in the mirror and be happy because I have led a good life. You on the other hand are delusional if you believe you are anything other than a chip on the highway of life because we both know that when you look in the mirror you see a freak!!!

Elizabeth said...


Manning had nothing to do with the pullout from Iraq which is the correct English spelling.

The Body Count of 114,000 counts all violent deaths and is not necessarily those killed by US troops but also includes those killed terrorists, militias, para military groups, and other nutjobs in Iraq.

The next time you take the post off topic you will join the only other person banned from here.

Mark Twain?? relevance???

Are you drinking again?

Look, I know you want to be a permanent victim because that is what those in the "trans" community want but the next time a man in a dress is a victim think about how many women were victims of rape that day by men. Not something you would ever have to worry about since you could kick the crap out of 99% of the men
in the world.

I am sure you present the "good" American when you are overseas. Yeah, right considering what you are doing demeans women but then you are a transwoman so it does not matter to you.

I also noticed you got the race stuff in. You basically got everything in you could think of. I believe you missed the Eskimos and the buffalo.

I bet you must be very disappointed in Obama!!!

Anonymous said...

If Sandeen and others can wait 20 years or more before "transitioning" (and I am using that word loosely), then Manning can wait for a mere 7 years.

If he wants to be a girl for the other guys in prison, that's his choice... and a whole different story.


Anonymous said...

@ An Old Aunty

Sigh... not at all dear! For want of a better term, call what I am referring to as "triage" rather than callousness. Realistically, there is only so much any of us can do for those who follow behind and with the legions of posers and mentally ill riding the coattails of those tiny number who are the real deal. We are diluted even further.

So what I am saying, cold as it may seem... as in triage, when you have very limited resources and many many places to put them, you have to choose wisely where you expend your efforts if you hope to save any at all! ie, Those who have shown both physically and mentally that they are capable of going the distance. Otherwise it is an exercise in futility.

So... back to the point. Whether Manning is or is not, it's really too early to tell. And from this great a distance all any of us really do is make ill formed conjecture based on sketchy data. That, on the other hand does not prevent us from seeing the actual damage his claims at this late date are having on the world. The last thing that any of us needs, particularly the young who have had such an added burden laid upon them by "the community" is yet another high profile reminder to the short attention span public that being born this way is the mileue of criminals and the insane.


Anonymous said...

I guess Liz hasn't seen some of the Wikileaks videos.
I guess she didn't see the videos of servicemen shooting children and obvious civilians.
I guess she didn't see the video of the chopper pilot shooting the childin the streets then the father of that child who went after him, the same pilot who laughingly said "he shouldn't have brought his son to a war zone".

I guess George Bush JR ordering soldiers in Cuba to torture prisoners of war, then prosecuting those soldiers for following orders was okay with you.

The plan to destabilize the middle east, topple governments and keep them from moving into the 21st century has been on the table in the US since Henry Kissingger proposed it back in the 80s.

Try to stay a Little more informed as to what is really going on in the world. The road the US is on will lead to its destruction. I hope you are happy.

War is wrong unless it is for self defense, the actions of this country are not defensive actions they are offensive actions and the actions of a a country that is using its constitution to wipe its ass with.

Elizabeth said...


Any serviceman deliberately shooting women and children are prosecuted and are the rarest of incidents and should never happen.

I would like a link to the video of the chopper pilot shooting innocent children in the streets. If done it is deplorable but pales in comparison to what the opposition has done.

I do not believe any soldier was ordered to torture someone in Cuba and was then prosecuted. Also it is debatable whether what the majority have faced in Cuba is torture but then they are alive and under normal combat situations terrorists are summarily executed in the field since most are caught behind enemy lines.

I think you have it backwards on the Middle East. It is the terrorists that want a destabilized middle east so they can lead all Arabs, actually everyone, back to the 8th century which was their heyday.

It is you that needs to stop reading your liberal rags that try and paint everything ever done by the US as wrong or evil. Iraq was wrong but we were attacked on 9-11-2001 and thus Afghan was within our rights. Personally I would never put a soldier on the ground in the middle east. I would simply bomb them back to the stone age where most of them want to be.

If that bothers you then tough shit. I lost 5 good friends in those towers when they came down and I went to 5 funerals and I would kill every terrorist in the world and anyone involved with them because it is us or them and it should be them.

War is a failure in diplomacy most of the time but I guess nobody should defend the weak and the helpless in your Utopian world.

If our soldiers kill innocents they are prosecuted. If the terrorists kill innocents they are martyrs. Somehow I think you have it backwards but then in your delusional world Islamist terrorists are freedom fighters that only want women to know their place and only kill because it is their last resort and we just love murdering women and children so we do it and laugh about it.

I am sure you are appalled at how brutally the Seals were, with all those innocents "around, when we "murdered" Bin Ladin.

Personally I think we should return every soldier to the US, close down every base we have in the world, and watch the rest of the world butcher itself. We can use our shale oil and fracking to be energy independent and then work for better renewable energy. Lock out borders down tight and watch the fun.

Of course we might need 70 foot walls to keep everyone out as your ideal "world" murders everyone in it.

I do agree with you about wiping our ass with the Constitution but for different reasons although I am opposed to what the NSA has done.

When you get you head out of your rather large asshole come back and have a clue.

Anonymous said...

Here is a link to the article regarding the video when it first came out I watched the video on YouTube. But since the US government doesn't believe in the First Amendment the video was pulled from YouTube.

But you can go here and watch the short version.

Here are some more examples of what those animals are doing to the people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maybe if you support what this disgusting government is doing, you should go and help out. What are you doing here, they take women in the army now. Maybe you should go join in instead of living in denial of the monster the US has become.


Black Swan said...


You do know when you shoot your mouth off with all those personal attacks, slurs, ad homonyms and general nastiness I know your argument falls on its ass. Its funny to see you do it to (((Munching Popcorn)))

Been to the bad places and saw the bad things, but can't speak about it. It's also why Bradley Manning's trial was without the news prying eyes. If you were Manning's defense team what do you think your defense tactic would be--to justify the leaks? Hmmm? I'm sure you have enough critical thinking to conjure that one? What would Manning have access to other than the leaked materials that we can see as an Intelligence analyst? I'm not going to share with you the links of "Collateral Damage" whereby you think that was only one isolated incident, no US soldier prosecuted BTW for that. I believe that black van had kids inside. I'm not sure--you get conflicting reports on it.

How does the initial prosecution tactic to seek the death penalty to ninety years end up with Manning getting 35 year and out in 7? Sound like the defense made a good case for the leaks. Nope your not going to get "innocent on all charges" that's not going to happen in this political climate.

Can you say Hiroshima and Nagasaki, how many innocent men women and children were burned in those bombings. Whether you light the match and burn soldiers or one at a time or decimate two citifies in atomic fire the result is the same just more efficient by the done by the US. The moral difference is obvious; the Japanese burned soldiers and we burned civilians--lots of them.

We do it today by exporting poverty--a new brand of economic terrorism, the US Military is now the armed escort for the big oil around the world. We uses the World Trade Center to invade Afghanistan and Iraq right. Since you brought it up, and your an engineer, can you please tell me how the twin towers were hit by to passenger jets asymmetrically, yet fall symmetrically--perfectly symmetrically actually as if a controlled demolition occurred? And at what temperature does it take to melt the steel core and hot does jet fuel gets when burned such as the 9/11 fire. Would that be enough to melt the cored in the way that it did to yield such a perfectly demolished building? How did building Seven come down?

Oh, and yes I'm in Paris now. Sorry about the Mark Twain reference, I was thinking about how we like to punish whistle blowers and the US slave trade. Maybe that was a failed analogy.

Elizabeth said...


Do you honestly believe that isolated instances where coalition or US troops go too far and commit an atrocity is even remotely equivalent to what Al Qaeda and the Taliban do to their own people?

According to the body count web site listed by Black Swan under 14,000 Iraq civilians have been killed by coalition troops. The remaining 100,000 were killed by insurgents, Al Qaeda, and Muslims killing Muslims or executing Coptic Christians.

What animals are you talking about NYF? Certainly not the Coalition troops. Because the only animals there seem to be the people you support.

I am opposed to war which probably surprises you but sometimes you have to fight. What would you have us do with Al Qaeda and their threat to us and others that are not purified because we do not believe in Sharia Law? How would you handle the situation? You kill them any way you have to.

As for the United States being a monster well we will have to agree to disagree but then it is a typical viewpoint of some who hate this country but obviously not the millions trying to get into this country.

I am too old for the service but I did what I could designing defensive systems to protect them but then anyone that supports the US is a monster I guess and an animal.

You are a fool.

Elizabeth said...

@Black Swan

Somehow I just knew you were a Truther. When I get some time I will respond to your drivel but as usual you are factually incorrect but then you never have let the truth get in the way of one of you bad lies.

Anonymous said...

Liz those incidents are more common than just isolated incidents.
You wanted examples, well there they are. As most Americans go, you are misinformed and don't look outside the US for mews of what is going on in the world. You believe everything you hear on the news is truthful and accurate, the US can do no wrong.

If you actually watched Carry's news conference then you know we are going to get involved in Syria and to quote him "it doesn't matter who used nerve gas" they are going in anyway with the purpose of toppling another legitimate government.
Keep drinking the Kool-And.


Elizabeth said...


First you obviously do not read much because it is John Kerry and Carry or were you thinking it was Jim Carrey the comedian?

Well maybe you should stop reading or watching news media that claims the US is somehow the bad guy in this war on terror. That is total and complete bullshit but then I am sure all those "foreign" sources are neutral on that.

Bad things happen in a war where the enemy uses civilians as cover for their actions. Soldiers sometimes do bad things under stress of combat but to claim that it is a common theme for US troops is complete bullshit but then people like you think the US is this monster and you cite as sources unnamed "foreign" something.

I guess I should get Al Jezzera so I can get an unbiased report. Maybe the Guardian is better. Have an suggestions?

As for Syria there is a question you should answer. Where did Syria get the sarin nerve gas he used on his people and then is no question they were gassed. Syria has NEVER had a program for the development of WMDs. Could the sarin have been from Iraq because it is the same nerve gas they used on the Kurds in 1988? I guess we have an idea where that nerve gas came from but then I assume you believe it is fiction.

I am waiting for you to now claim we have used sarin in the middle east because we are such "monsters".

You are naive and you are a fool.

Elizabeth said...

@Black Swan

I have to admit I cannot stop laughing because it actually makes sense that you are a Truther!! I knew you were a raving mad lunatic with little concept of what is truthful and what is complete bullshit but Truther explains it all. You are a paranoid nutjob.

As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki it was a decision made to save American lives. Conservative estimates were that 1 or 2 million Allied, mostly American, soldiers would need to make an amphibious landing on mainland Japan. 200,000 troops made an amphibious landing on Okinawa and the casualty rate was 25%. Mainland Japan casualties were estimated to be close to 40% killed and wounded.

In addition there were around 3 plus million Japaneses soldiers and they had a death rate of 90% in all combat situations where they lost because they fought to the death. Civilian casualties would have been massive because we would have carpet bombed Tokyo.

They ended the war and saved American and Allied casualties that would have been catastrophic. But then after how kind and decent the Japanese were to the Chinese and Koreans, and Filipinos and the people in Indochina we should have played kissy poo with the murderous bastards. We offered them the right to surrender but they wanted to keep there military intact. Wasn't going to happen.

We rebuilt both Japan and Germany with American money but that is forgotten in the world of the hack historians like you.

I am nasty with you because you deserve it for what you have attempted to do to me and what you have said to me over the time you have unfortunately commented on this blog.

Thankfully now that I know you are a Truther I will tread softly because you are obviously mentally ill. Now go back to Paris, wink wink, but then I do not believe that either because nobody has viewed this blog for over a week from Paris or France.

Keep that large head of yours firmly planted up your ass so you can smell what you have been spewing on my blog since you started commenting.

Black Swan said...

Elizabeth, see Live Traffic: Paris, Ile-de-France arrived on "Notes from the T side: Bradley Manning".
00:50:47 -- 7 minutes ago

Just finished a shoot in town.

Well I'm not sure what a " truther" is yet but is guess I have to open a fresh case of whoop-ass and liven the debate up a bit... Again. (((Grinning)))

Gotta a bet this may go past 100 posts. I'll throw in a twenty. Want to up the ante?

Anonymous said...

I don't believe it's necessary to triaging kindness.

- an old aunty

Anonymous said...

On Youtube, I have seen some of the atrocities committed by US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

On the other hand, on Youtube I have also seen talking cats, unearthed skeletons of 50 foot tall Nephilim, shape-shifting reptilian aliens caught on camera, and all other manner of strange things. That's Youtube for you!

Last night I watched video from a US Apache gunship opening fire on a group of reporters. They claimed the reporters had weapons (which turned out to be camera bags slung over their shoulders), and in one scene, one of them was seen peeking around the corner of a building, holding what was thought to be an RPG, but in reality was a camera with a telephoto lens. Thing is, it DID look like an RPG, and those camera bags DID look like weapons from the POV of the helicopter. The soldiers made a mistake, and one that was likely fairly common under those circumstances. War is hell.

Take a bunch of young men, train them to kill, and then stick them in the middle of a war zone, and this sort of thing happens. It's war, not some sinister conspiracy to impose American domination or a NWO on the world. Vietnam, Korea, World Wars 1 and 2... it's all the same.

I'm a pacifist. My biggest prayer is that the human race will find a way to get along without such conflicts. But I am also not naive. Manning is no hero. When our troops are engaged in a war, the last thing anyone should do is to leak information that might put our troops in increased peril. That is what Manning did, and IMO he got off light.

Of course the transgender activists and their mindless followers latched onto Manning. They are like leaches, attaching themselves to anyone who might seem the least bit trans-anything. Fine, let them have the traitors, murderers, and rapists as their poster children, except....

they also latched onto transsexuals long ago, and claim that we're all just varieties of the same thing. That's what they teach in their Trans 101 talks at colleges, high schools, and everywhere else where people have ears. So, when they accept traitors like Manning as their poster boy (oops, that should be poster gurl), then when the shit hits the fan, it splatters on us too.

Know who else it splatters on? Little children born with this defect/disorder/whatever you prefer to call it, who have yet to transition. Innocents who can look forward to a lifetime of being compared to silly men in dresses, or even worse, being convinced by some "gender therapist" that they are also transgendered rather than being a normal girl or boy whose body is simply the wrong sex.

And yet they call us hateful HBSers, transsexual separatists, and other horrid things because we resist them.


Elizabeth said...


Well said.

@Black Swan

A Truther is a flaming idiot that believes the US was actually responsible for 9/11 and hired the hijackers and used explosives to bring down the towers which is what you implied. Basically this makes you an idiot along with the other morons like that that think we never landed men on the moon and that the United States is somehow an evil monster.

You are pathetic and yes I did see France but as for your shoot was it for porn or the other ridiculous crap you do demeaning women. You will NOT be taking it up a notch on my blog your flaming TG asshole.

Black Swan said...


More logic and reason less invectives and personal attacks please. Your losing the debate when you go there. Site some sources please. I've asked some questions that you as an engineer can illuminate.

BTW Most of the work I do is overseas and you can't really see it, but the Harper's Bazaar (Karl Lagerfeld) shoot went international. OK onto the topic.

The US Army kept declaring "no wrong doing" and the Reuters reporters killed were according to their code of military normal operations until the Collateral Damage video was released.

The government begins the tap dance and PR spin--placing the focus elsewhere--typical. Now Manning is blamed for it! Why!? He didn't fire a shot.

Varies estimates of deaths of civilians. The numbers are different from different sources; some say somewhere between 100,000 and 130,000 civilian deaths.

This is where Elizabeth gets her very low numbers. Notice that the reports cited calls the US Military as "occupiers" not "invaders" or "aggressors" such as the rest of the world defines the US action in Iraq.
Clearly these are very pro-war bloodthirsty sites that Elizabeth loves to read. I get she supports them. She has been part of the killing machine for her entire career as she boosts.

The problem with the Logic Times math is you need to use the number of US Troop causalities compared to the total number of causalities. If you have a normal loss ratio of troops to objective you are looking at 1/3 acceptable loss ratio. That means bad guys will fire back at you, and with US superior firepower and technique your not going to get past that 1/3 ratio, unless you using missiles or long range artillery--then, or course you really can't claim them insurgents or terrorist for lack of identification; or arbitrary identification for PR spin more likely. Its planned out in the war room long before entering a conflict; the number ground troops lost needed to take land. Why only 4488 ( US troop killed when, if your using the 1/3 model, you should have 33,000 US troop casualties for example. It means that the claimed bad guys (insurgents or so-called terrorists) are not fighting back! Doh!

Nope Elizabeths your numbers or outrageous and fabricated to assuage suspicion of the usual suspects. Agreed! Its much harder in asymmetric warfare to fight an enemy that doesn't wear a uniform and uses civilians for cover--yet the ends (control over oil) do not justify the means.

BTW The possible reason why only 9% or the women and 1-2 % of the children civilian deaths are so low (these numbers given by Logic Times source) in Iraqi culture women don't normally roam the streets, and kids are not going to play outside, especially when being invaded by the US. Don't you think?

9/11 the pretext to invade Afghanistan and Iraq

Truther Site

Debunking Truthers

I like balance.

Is the "9/11 official report [is] a LIE too big to swallow!"?

Yet Obama give Bush "Absolute Immunity" for everything!!

All this because Americans don't want to pay what Europe pays for the price of gas. Its double the cost here in France; 6 euro per gallon which is $8 per gallan US.

Elizabeth said...

@Black Swan

Your other post will not see this blog.

The figures for civilian casualties are the total number killed by allied forces, the insurgents, Al Qaeda, and internal militias. They are the total as the result of the war and not US actions. I realize you believe you are intelligent but to be blunt you are as dumb as a fence post.

I would suggest reading what you link to but that would be beyond your minimal intellectual capabilities. The US is not responsible for the deaths caused by terrorists, insurgents, etc. but then I am sure you think we are but last time I checked we were not strapping bombs on people and telling them to blow themselves up.

Sadaam killed 15-20,000 of his own people each year but then who cares. My numbers were the actual verified numbers of dead caused in collateral damage, horrible phrase, and innocents caught in crossfire even though many were placed in danger by their own people to protect themselves.

The reporters was a horrible mistake but it was most certainly not deliberate. It was tragic but they were somewhere they should not have been and reporters have died and will continue to die from friendly fire mistakes but also deliberate which is not what the US does.

I find you particularly offensive in your claims that somehow we are in the wrong in fighting the terrorists. I gather you support the use of bombing innocents "deliberately" using car bombs etc. as is currently happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. Glad to see you have learned to spell Iraq you moron.

Where do you think Syria got its chemical weapons? Want to hazard a guess?

As for your Truther bullshit please hand that line of bullshit to the other mental midgets like yourself and not to those that have recognizable IQ points which is debatable for you.

Do you ever think about what drivel you write. 8$ gasoline would cripple the economy even more than it already is and would devastate the poor but then you self appointed so-called elites never think of the consequences of your actions .

Elizabeth said...


We will be independent of foreign oil by the end of this decade if our President has the balls to do what should be done. We have more oil and gas in the US and Canada than we can use in 100 years and that independence will allow us to develop cleaner technology which is what everyone wants.

9/11 was not a pretext to attack Iraq and Afghanistan you freaking moron. Afghanistan was righteous because they murdered 3000 Americans and 5 of the people that died in those towers were good friends of mine so do not tell me the US had anything to do with that. All you had to do was look at the shock on Bush's face when he learned about it when he was with the children.

Idiots like you and your fellow scumbag apologists that believe that somehow this country is evil need a good dose of reality. We are not the bad guys in the War on terror and any dipshit moron like yourself that implies that is just proving your own stupidity.

Your claim that somehow the bad guys were not shooting back is total bullshit. They killed us and their own people without reservation.

There is no normal ratio of our guys killed to their guys killed in this kind of war. Most of our combat is fought by elite troops such as Force recon for the Marines and Rangers/Airborne and Seals. Other troops are support plus standing orders have been since early on that ground troops cannot fire first which led to higher casualties for our soldiers. Now I realize you probably applaud our soldiers dying but I do not since I have family and friends in combat but then I am sure assholes like you consider them monsters.

I guess we should just let the terrorists do what they want. I bet you think we were wrong to kill Bin Ladin. Funny how people like you just think the bad guys are going to live and let live or negotiate peace. They want Americans dead and that even includes your sorry ass but then I bet you go around kissing with all those Muslims in France that want Sharia law. Good luck with that.

The rest of this post is utter bullshit. You are just like the assholes that tried to appease Hitler before WWII and let Jews and other minorities be murdered in concentration camps.

The same goes for NYF who has her head firmly planted up her ass on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Hay Liz

There is no proof Syria used nerve gas.
Even that asshole Kerry admitted we don't know who did it.
Bo back and re watch his news conference. So we are going to kill people and blow up shit anyway.
What kind of justice is that?

You really do need to, stop watching the state sponsored propaganda outlets and get out more.

Oh and by the way, I read quite a bit this blog app has no option for editing. I realized my mistake as soon as I hit the send button, it is not like you or others here haven't made typos.

Russia and China have put the US on formal notice they will get involved if the US strikes. You want that?

I don't understand how people like you can back the so called war on terror, Being a true pro life woman I don't support any killing unless it is in self defense. Your throw away line regarding the women and children killed as the US seeks to exterminate the fraction of the third world that won't fall in line and live in the dirt with the rest of the third world, and hand over their resources makes me sick to my stomach.

I always knew you were a war monger but I never thought you would back this cluster fuck.

This action by the asshole and chief only has 9% public approval, what happened to the people having a voice?


Elizabeth said...


I am far from a war monger but I do believe the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist and it that bothers you then you are the one with the problem.

I do watch multiple sources of news and I would agree MSNBC is a state sponsored network. I would not put it past both sides to use sarin in Syria but Syria has a pretty good supply of it. It is the French and the British that are claiming proof of the use of sarin but we seem skeptical. The problem I see is Obama will listen to the French and Brits and get involved.

Russia and China will do nothing if Syria is attacked. What are they going to do, complain to the UN? Personally I do not care if the Arabs kill each other and I do not want to get involved. Basically the entire bunch of them are animals and they should kill each other completely.

You do not back the war on terror which is interesting. What do you think we should do? let them just kill us!! A very silly and naive approach. I do not believe we should use ground troops but other than that kill the bastards anytime and anywhere.

It is patently absurd to claim the United States is trying to exterminate the Arabs and force people to live in the dirt. That is what the Muslim extremists want. They want to go back to 800 AD when Muslims had a clue.

Every time you add another tidbit you make yourself seem less rational. I am not a fan of Obama's now but how he has handled the War on terror is okay in my book but then I guess you think we should bend over and take one from murderers.

Do you condemn what the terrorists do to their own people? I bet you do not. You can never appease terrorists but then I guess you think we can.

I bet you are also a Truther. Very sad.

Anonymous said...

So your answer is to brand me a truther? what a lame reply.

If you had been paying attention to what actually has been going on in the aria you would know Russia Iran Syria and China are engaged in several interlocking trade agreements. By the way they are not using petrol dollars, in other words they are not trading using the US dollar, which has the US's panties in a wad, it is a growing trend to move away from using the US dollar as a medium of exchange.

Russia and China who combined have a larger military force then we do, will act if their economic interests / health are threatened. While we need China for all the consumer garbage they produce, China doesn't need US. China has many other trading partners.

You would never know this if all you watch is the state sponsored media here in the US. (Fox CNN and the three networks)

Sorry to burst your bubble, this isn't the country your parents fought and died for.

So what throw away label are you going to toss at me now?

A true American

Elizabeth said...


I was not labeling you. O simply asked of you were a Truther? Simple question that you ignored.

I also asked how do we fight terrorists and you ignored that question. I would like to ask where you are getting this information and what makes you believe this but I doubt you would point me at them, pr maybe you would.

First off you are delusional in your petrol dollar claims. Neither the Russians, the Chinese or the Iranians are going to get into a shooting war over Syria but Iran has some serious issues facing it. Al Qaeda has issued a fatwah against them for supporting Syria and has threatened retaliation which should be fun to watch.

You obviously have little idea how the World economy works but that is a discussion for someone whose head is screwed on straight. The Chinese economy is sitting on the precipice of a major collapse.

As for your claims about Russia and oil money you make your stupidity quite apparent . Russia's entire economy is based on oil and gas and is facing a dire future because it is leveraged on $100+ barrel pricing for oil and its oils and gas reserves are dwindling.

You actually think Russia and China will go to war over Syria? Wow, you are naive. Syria is a pimple on an elephant's butt to them. You actually fear that will happen or are you supporting them?

I certainly do not like the direction of this country economically but we will figure it out.

Have a nice day. Is that possible for you?

Anonymous said...

What is a truther?
Define it.

I search for the truth behind everything that happens, I don't sit on my lazy ass and believe everything the news-spokesholes say. You should really find out who has editorial control over what is on CNN Fox and the like before you go and believe everything you hear from them.

Me delousional about the petrol dollar? I hardly think so, my minor in college was in economics. The petrol dollar's support has been eroding since 1980. The US dollar is down against every currency since 1980. It took massive dumping of gold on the market to keep the price below $2000.00 / OZ last year. The dollar continues to decline on every exchange. Kiss your retirement goodbye if this action in Syria begins WW3. I'll have to live off precious metals I have hoarded over the years, even then my standard of living will go down the drain simply because I have 2/3 of my life savings in paper.

The fight begins terrorism begins at home, not killing children over in some land half way around the world.
So where is the civil air patrol watching our southern border, Why are both borders wide open?
Why isn't the military patrolling our coastal waters? Why are the TSA not profiling like other countries do. When was the last time you heard of a bombing at an Israeli airport?
What the last 2 administrations have been doing to stop terrorism is bullshit, and it has not worked.
It came out in court documents that the underwear bomber was led past airport security in the Netherlands by a man in a business suite, he had help from within and yet you never hear of the his accomplice being prosecuted.

And yes Russia and China will back Syria, they each has stronger economies, and combined they have a larger military than we do.
In short you need to do some homework and stop being lazy, when you do you will find out that IF WW3 starts we will have our asses handed to us. The US doesn't have the resources to fight Syria, Iran, China and Russia all at once and keep up the other wars we are involved in.

So tell me Liz what is a truther?


Elizabeth said...


A Truther is one who rejects the accepted explanation of the events of 9/11. Truthers generally believe the U.S. government committed the acts of terrorism against itself.

Why don't you tell me who has editorial control over Fox, CNN, MSNBC et al.? I am interested in some documentation.

Oh my god you are one of these.

You believe all this from the lunatic fringe. OMG and you claim this is where you find the truth!!! ROFLMAO

Anonymous said...

It is laughable to see you behaving like Black Swan back a year or so ago on some of the Tee-Gee posts.

You and I have one thing in common, neither of know what happened on 9/11 except for what we saw on TV. The government story has holes in it, the conspiracy theorists stories have holes in them. If you are going to tell me you know what happened on that day and know the events leading up to it you are a bigger fool than Autumn Sandeen.

As for your second goofball link you pulled out of, wherever you pulled it out of. History proves that every economic system collapses, usually in less than 200 years. If you don't know that than there is little hope for you. Only a fool has all their assets tied up in paper, all those fools who had money in the New York Stock Exchange in 1987 didn't completely recover until late in 2000. Some of them never did. Most of my family had taken some sage advice and got out of the market by March of 1987. There was a lot of paper that wasn't worth wiping your butt with in November of 1987.
I had a 401K at the time and bailed out of it July of 87 bought gold.
You have any idea how much $45,000.00 worth of gold bouillon bought in 1987 is worth now?

Have a nice day.

Anonymous said...

I'm just an ageing lefty, but somewhere deep in my memory there are pictures of children running from chemical attacks (napalm and Agent Orange) by the USA in Vietnam.

If I recall correctly the USA has not signed up to the International Criminal Court so GWB is safe (unless he travels to a country which is signed up and prepared to arrest him) but Blair could, in theory, be arrested and tried for war crimes and extradited to The Hague (or even tried under UK law).

As regards Pte Manning's gender/sex issue - I reserve judgement pending all the facts.

Elizabeth said...


I know what happened on 9/11 and know what happened before it is not relevant to what was done. There was no justification for it. Your claim that both sides on the 9/11 story have holes implies that the Truther's have some validity to their lunacy. They do not. The planes flew into the towers and friends of mine burned to death and one jumped to avoid burning alive. A plane flew into the Pentagon and friends of mine were seriously injured. The flight came down in Pennsylvania because some brave people took charge and fought back.

That link is a major petrol dollar supporter and their beliefs aline with yours so excuse me if I figured that was your source of the "true" news which you have not supplied me with.

I am willing to read and be better informed so source me up.

The United States could not stay on gold because we were required to back every dollar with gold. It was impossible to expand the economy since the supply of gold is limited and if we had you would not own gold since it was not allowed.

My late husband owned precious metals that are mine but they are just part of what I have which allows me to be somewhat comfortable but far from wealthy.

I asked you a question before about who controls the media editorial content and you did not respond and we both know why.

You also did not respond when I reminded you that both Russia and Iran's economy are based entirely on oil and gas. Kind of puts a large hole in your logic.

Also what Syria and Iran have threatened is to attack Israel if we shoot some cruise missiles so Obama can feel like he did something. Threatening something like that is more a sign of desperation than reality. If they gas Israel they will both cease to exist and they know it so they will do nothing. Hopefully nothing happens but using gas on innocents is bad business and my sources tell me the rebels have no delivery mechanism for what that is worth.

The leaders in Syria are Ba'ath as was Saddam and they are a minority and Saddam gassed the Kurd so I kind of doubt the Syrians would not do what they feel is necessary to maintain power.

Personally I would prefer to let the French or others handle this since they are so sure but they do not have the ability to do much of anything.

Like I said if you give me links to your news sources I will read them.

Anonymous said...

I didn't respond to who controls the media because the answer is obvious.
The corporations who buy advertising time control the editorial content of the media outlet they support. Do you really think CNN will give time to anti war news when Lockheed and GD buy massive amounts of commercial time? You can't be that stupid, unless dementia is setting in, really!

For you to say you have any idea what happened on the morning of 9/11 is a sure sign you don't have a clue, neither do I, but I am adult enough to admit AI don't know what happened. And don't tell me that you who supposedly has an engineering background believes the bullshit story as to why Building 7 imploded.
And it did implode, go loot at the video.

Theory is one thing goodle Catherine Austin Fitts The looting of America. I don't have the time or the inclination to spoon feed you good information She is a good start.
Some good real world economics.

One last thing and it seems obvious in your latest blog post. Being close to an issue such as loosing friends in the 9/11 attacks does nothing but prove you are too close to the issue to be objective, that you may be able to step outside of the issue and your emotional tie to it. That is being human, we all do that from time to time, I don;t fault you for your humanity, however that in no way boosts your knowledge or lack thereof regarding 9/11.


Elizabeth said...


The thing I find amazing about conspiracy theorists is their complete lack of imagination. They simply say it didn't happen that way and throw piles of shit at the wall hoping something will stick. Unfortunately I do not need to provide proof that how I believed it happened because the evidence is incontrovertible and you have not a single iota of evidence that it happened otherwise. Not a single piece of proof other than rampart speculation by the lunatic fringe like yourself.

It was like the idiots that claimed NASA never landed a man on the moon by claiming it was a hoax. They had no proof and were categorically wrong but they screamed it often enough they actually made a movie about. Conspiracy theories have a life of there own because people cannot and will not recognize the obvious. Sometimes bad guys do bad things and it is just that simple.

In your world the United States is the bad guys so you need us to be the cause or the root cause of events. Sometimes we actually are but you take it to the extreme by making silly claims that have no foundation if fact. You make it up as you go along and if something is proved stupid you go to another theory.

You now make the spurious claim that I am too close to the 9/11 attacks because I had friends die so I am not objective which makes the assumption that your silly claims have validity. You play the game of placing the focus on us to prove your silliness invalid when in truth it is you that needs to prove the assumptions you propose are valid.

Multiple leading civil Engineering firms proved beyond a doubt that what happened on 9/11 as 99.99% of America believes was exactly what happened and one of them was a company owned by a relative of mine. Add in Purdue, MIT, Cal Tech, the original architects, and hundreds of experts. There is not a single reputable engineering form that supports any Truther claim and NYF you are a Truther and it has nothing to do with seeking the truth.

I know this about you because we argued this point elsewhere where you pushed your conspiracy views. In your world the US cause all the problems in the world and is a monster and just so evil because somehow we are no good.

You are actually so deluded that you believe the US government or one of its agencies flew those planes into those buildings and had set demolition charges before hand that caused them to come down.

As for building 7 I suggest you read this

I doubt you have the intelligence to understand the truth but then you are not an engineer. I understand the concept of thermal expansion of key structural components because it was part of my knowledge from rocket motors and hypergolic fuels.

Keep those conspiracy theories coming.

Elizabeth said...


I realize facts and engineering priciples mean nothing to conspiracy theorists who claim stell has never in history been melted by fire which is what idiots like you believe. Steel is created with fire and steel softens as it is heated.

I was the onsite Engineer for my relatives company on a 67 story highrise in midtown Manhattan from 1969 into the early 70's. What does boost my knowledge is that I have extensive experience in materials engineering, static structures, and bodies in motion. I actually have a fucking clue while you have none.

Loads in a building are finely calculated and when a structure begins to fail amazing things happen that conspiracy theorists have no clue about. The Towers were a center core construction and revolutionary for the time. I was up in Tower one several times during construction when it was a steel frame.

The funny thing is you dipshits miss the big picture all the time. Actually it is sad but I find your stupidity humorous. Make spurious claims with no basis and then deny the other factually based arguments. Stupid is as stupid does. You are stupid because you believe your own stupidity because you make the same claims from a different place yet never provide an iota of proof. It is true because you say it is so yet you couch in in statements like nobody really knows what happens and there are holes in your theory and holes in the conspiracy theory making the assumption that there actually are holes in a fact based result proven engineering wise beyond a shadow of a doubt by ever leading engineering firm asked to investigate.

I happen to agree with the errors of our ways concerning debt. I owe nobody a dime. I live a cash life and that makes me lucky.

If you want to argue 9/11 bring some facts from reputable sources and not some Truther bullshit spouted by some fat cow like Rosie O'Donnell saying everyone knows fire cannot melt steel which is patently wrong but then Rosie is just another dipshit talking head. What is your excuse.

Elizabeth said...


By the way the Towers did nit collapse from melting steel but for other reasons caused by the fire. Jet fuel does not burn hot enough but steel is weakened and that caused the collapse.

read the following if you dare.

red this one for a good explanation.

Anonymous said...

What the hell is wrong with you.
I tell you I don't believe in the conspiracies, and I don't believe in the government line ether, and you start making accusations and calling me names, I guess dementia has set in.

By the way, Just so you know, you are so full of shit, I know people who were amateur radio operators who built equipment to listen to the Apollo astronauts I have listened to the Open reel tapes they made of the historic Apollo 11 landing and watched it on TV, I know we went to the Moon you senile dipshit.

Elizabeth said...


Larry Baysinger, W4EJA heard about 35 minutes of VHF broadcasts between Armstrong/Aldrin and Collins because it was not part of the encoded S band signal from the Command Module to the Earth and Houston. There were others with him but they are the only ones, plus Russians, that heard the audio. Baysinger is the only one known to have accomplished the feat but others made claims but failed the technology questioning.

I realize your sense of humor is limited but my reference to Apollo was sarcasm and not meant as any accusation.

As for your position on 9/11 please do not try and reset your opinion. You made a direct accusation about Building 7 which was not valid. You made claims that the explanations for the Tower collapses had "holes" adn implied the Truther version had "holes" which gave the impression the Truthers had some validity to their position, which they most certainly did not.

Read what you wrote sometime. As for senility my mind is quite sharp and I am able to supply evidence and facts that back up my opinions while you provide anecdotal information based on the assumptions or comments of those without a single clue.

You make the fallacious comment that because I had friends die in the Towers I am somehow too close and cannot see the truth. Well what is your truth NYF? It is a simple question and over my life I have written 5 thesis' and understand the need to factually represent your position when defending a thesis. You seem to feel throwing crap against the wall defends your position.

You made claims about the petrol dollar and attempted to claim that Russia and Iran were not bound by such a thing when in point of fact they are two countries whose entire economy is oil based which I pointed out and you conveniently ignored.

I am not senile but I can be a dipshit at times as can you.

Anonymous said...

To show you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
None of the voice transmissions on the whole Apollo project were encoded, they were in the clear, plain old S band and UHF FM.
The telemetry was NRZ format Non return to Zero, a worldwide standard that had been in use since the early 60s. NASA didn't begin to encode voice transmissions until just before Challenger.

The original manual that RCA received for satellite payloads, the 4" binder given to RCA engineers at the beginning of the program included specifications for voice and data transmissions they were all in the clear. How do I know this?
I read the manual cover to cover in 1983. A coworker had an original manual from his previous job.

There were other hams, out here in California who had some rather beefy moon bounse stations that could easily overcome the 190DB path loss and receive a 10-15 w S-band FM signal that was running a high gain antenna. I won't say where I worked, but I know as much as you do about that program and maybe more. There are still peaces of our hardware in deep space sending back data.

I didn't make any accusation about Building 7 I saw the video, I saw how it fell, I didn't make or assert any appeal to authority, you did.

You and I were not there, we didn't get a chance to monitor the trunked radio traffic before or after the the attack. After the attack the radios Motorola trunked radios operating in P-25 mode went conventional as part of the "failsoft" protocol. Before I retired I worked with and on P-25 trunking systems using Motorola Astro digital protocols.

Unfortunately what would have been very useful information for all parties to have a clearer understanding of what happened on 9/11 was lost because of that. Thanks to a lot about Boston, and Sandy hook is known, it tends to keep the record straight.

Be all of that as it may, you and I have nothing to fall back on in regard to what actually happened on 9/11 the evidence is only circumstantial. There were no infrared readings taken on the day of the attack, only after the fact and they are somewhat confusing.

Lastly, I don't jump to conclusions or chase conspiracy theories. I look for evidence that will stand up in court or to the scientific method.

The Internet does not contain the sum of all knowledge possessed by mankind, as a matter of fact it is the single largest source of misinformation on the planet.


I take back what I said about you.

Elizabeth said...


S-band was most certainly how communication was handled between the command module and earth. It was designed by NASA and JPL to combine voice, video, telemetry, command, tracking, and software program uploads for various parts of the mission.

It was most certainly encoded because it was needed to save weight, size and to simplify operations. Because it combined all this information and was in the microwave spectrum it had to be decoded and broken into its component subcarriers from the single carrier frequency. How do I know this? I worked on it for a while.

Mercury and Gemini worked on UHF and VHF and were thus a clear signal. The only VHF was between the Command Module and the Lunar Module on Apollo.

As for the Towers and Building 7 there you go again implying or insinuating somehow that since we could not monitor radio traffic that something "sinister" or possibly "unknown" happened that brings into doubt what happened during and after the act of terror.

That is typical conspiracy theorist bullshit. You then claim the evidence is circumstantial. What evidence are you claiming was circumstantial? The facts are incontrovertible as is the scientific analysis of what happened.

Yes you do jump to conclusions NYF. There is not one scientific fact that backs up any of these attempted implications that something is "unknown" and thus makes suspect what the leading civil engineers in the world concluded after both authorized and unauthorized analysis of the attack on 9/11.

You were wrong about Apollo NYF.

I still like you but these subjects you should leave alone.

Anonymous said...

In regard to Apollo, My sources say you are wrong about voice traffic, it was all analogue. Data on the other hand was compressed. I am not going to argue with you over 45 year old events.

In regard to building 7 I am not implying or insinuating anything, I am being honest, as you should. You have no idea what took place there, you were not there as a witness, please be grown up enough to admit it.

One last thing and I will let this dead horse rest before we bust a broom handle beating it.

Wikipedia is no source for accurate information regarding historical, political or social matters, only hard science. In case you didn't know Wikipedia bases facts or so called facts on consensus, not on actual data.


Elizabeth said...


Your sources on Apollo are wrong. Voice traffic between the Command Module and the Lunar Module were UHF and VHF because the distances were limited. In order to save both space and battery power the S-Band communication system was developed by NASA and Jet propulsion Lab to carry voice, video, telemetry. It is a simple statement of fact because I worked for NASA and I know! Your sources are wrong but I would be interested in reading their claims so provide a link.

There you go again trying to make a case that something insidious happened with Building 7 because somehow you and I were not there and thus are clueless and then you add the silly comment about being grown up enough to admit it. Well it is quite clear you are clueless about this subject.

Being present or witnessing the event has nothing to do with understanding what happened on 9-11-2001. The facts are indisputable and if you had half a brain and read the links supplied in the Wikipedia links you would have found and actually read the actual analysis of what happened but then basically you ignore facts and use the argument that my lack of presence implies something happened. Bullshit.

The reason I supplied a Wikipedia link was so i would not tax your limited common sense because it is obvious you are so consumed with your hatred for this country the facts and nothing but the facts are not relevant to you and your conspiracy theorists buddies.

The only one beating a dead horse is you and your continued insistence based on absolutely not one iota of factual evidence that something other than what obviously did happened did not happen.

Do you live in an alternate universe?

Elizabeth said...


Your Apollo sources might be confused because Apollo did communicate in near earth orbit over VHF during orbital and recovery of the ship.

The University of Florida did have a 9 meter radio astronomy dish that received S-band from Apollo 17. O believe the Germans (West) used a 20 meter dish to receive S-Band from 8-16 and if the recorded the data I am sure they could probably have broken it down into is sub carrier bands.

Are those your sources?

Here is a link.

Anonymous said...

As I said your sources on Apollo, your field of engineering obviously doesn't include communications systems. The voice video and date were contained on sub carriers, this is how the stereo FM broadcasts are accomplished that you pick up on your clock radio. This is an analogue modulation scheme and there is no "encoding" involved. As a matter any chimpanzee with a spectrum analyzer could apply the correct demodulation sub carriers to the baseband signal after demodulation and recover all the information. This is a technique that in 1968 was already over 35 years old. Sorry but in communications you are clearly out of your league Liz.

By the way I know all about the VHF and UHF communications systems, My Apollo sources actually worked on the hardware in question, including the stage telemetry and video transmitters.

As I said there were also amateur radio operators who had S-Band equipment, the receiving equipment was not hard to home brew back then, not to mention the abundance of surplus equipment that operates in S-Band that was, and is to this day still available here in California.


The communications techniques used by NASA back in the day were old, reliable techniques. A lot of analogue and very little digital actually used in the communications equipment gear of the day. The big steps forward were the on board computers and the second generation interrogated circuits. Even so, IC technology had been around since about 1957, What NASA was using was considerably refined.

Elizabeth said...


I have to admit you are amazing at changing your argument and making your new argument seem to be your primary position when in fact you denied this in your previous argument.

Remember how it was UHF and VHF? Your words and not mine. Now a chimpanzee could have come up with a way to break apart the sub-carriers in the Apollo S-band down-link. Interesting concept that JPL has chimps working there.

I guess we at NASA had no clue since we used "old" reliable techniques. I would point you to the documents describing how our S-band came about and its complexities and issues with interference from other hardware but I am sure you are an expert and even if you are not you will change your argument and claim the high ground.

Do you even have a clue wht we COULD NOT use UHF and VHF like you once claimed we did?