I have not posted in a while which I am sure has pleased a lot of people. Just kidding or maybe not.
There was a very interesting post on Jack Molay's Blog involving a recent study in the Netherlands concerning transsexuals. Once one gets buy the title using homosexual transsexual, Molay actually dislikes the term, the post is actually quite interesting. I cannot say I agree with everything Molay says but he says what he says quite well.
I am not going to talk about the mental health aspect of the article but the results of the survey when discussing sexual orientation.
This is from the report:
Abstract
Sex, sexual orientation and age have been shown to
be important in relation to psychological functioning in transsexuals.
However, only few studies to date took these factors into account and
not earlier have adolescent transsexuals participated. In this study the
Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI-2 or MMPI-A,
respectively) was administered to:
293 adults
(207 male to female
transsexuals (MtFs), mean age 38.04 (range 18.56-65.62) and
86 female to
male transsexuals (FtMs), mean age 33.26 (range 18.95-64.30)) and
83
adolescents
(43 MtFs, mean age 15.70 (range 13.16-18.70) and all were heterosexual female
40 FtMs,
mean age 15.64 (range 13.05-18.56)) all were heterosexual male
with a gender identity disorder
(GID).
Of adult MtFs, 33% were categorized as heterosexual female and 66% as lesbian.
Of adult FtMs, 77% were categorized as heterosexual male
and 33% as gay men. (There is an error in there percentages)
Adult FtMs functioned significantly better
than MtFs on three clinical scales. Contrary to what is often assumed,
no differences in psychological functioning were found in the adult
transsexuals with regard to sexual orientation, except on one clinical
scale. Most remarkably, significantly more adults with GID scored in the
clinical range on two or more clinical scales than adolescents with
GID. Therefore, early medical intervention may be recommendable for
adolescents with GID.
Every early transitioner was heterosexual in the desired sex. In other words all MTF transsexuals liked boys and all FTM transsexuals liked girls. This fits what Dr. Benjamin witnessed in his practice and based on my personal experiences helping kids financially it is dead on. The children who force an early transition are high intensity transsexuals or those with complete psycho-sexual inversion. Most of us that did it young aggressively pushed the gender boundaries of our day. Maybe we were brave but IMHO I have often felt it was the fear of growing up male that did it. It terrified me but I also could not be what I was not which is a simplistic view. It is complicated and the few that know me really well, there are actually quite a few, will tell you in my day I never really understood much of it.
The other interesting statistic was the results of the of adults although I would tend to believe if they had categorized the younger adults a higher percentage would be heterosexual in their desired sex. I have admitted I do not understand late transitioners and it is probably because I have no real reference point. I am beginning to wonder if the later one transitions results in more MTF lesbians due to conditioning.
The other thing I know personally from the kids I have been involved with and others I have known like myself is the fact none of us ever dated or were attracted to girls. It was always boys for us and that is what drove the early transition along with the horror of growing up male. We all wanted to date boys but only if we were girls. I fully expect to be attacked on this point saying any boy was gay if they dated someone like me in my teens. I can tell you I certainly never tried to attract boys as a girl but I did primarily because of physical appearance. The other value is getting on hormones early, 14 for me, is invaluable and hopefully this study will help get all kids treated like Kim Petras.
What did come from the study was the kids were more psychologically prepared for life as girls and boys and I am convinced that is because they got to live in their correct gender as kids.
So those of you that think sex, age, and sexual orientation means nothing in transsexuals, you might want to rethink that position based on this study.
21 comments:
You expect to be attacked ...
Not attacking but I have read over and over your "findings" based on your experiences growing up, and it seems to me you are implying that because it fits your model, all other models must be invalid.
The problem with these groupings of test subjects for studies, and perhaps the inherent flaw of it, is where did they get the subjects of the study. Is it like a casting call? .. do they advertise? ... or .. are they trolling the gay bars and the support groups looking for participants? Is it an "internut" study, where participants are gleaned from chat rooms, or are these folks being garnered from doctors lists, which would mean that it were a very suspect group indeed.
I mean, 293 participants to the study, thats a lot of transsexuals quite honestly. What if they rounded up another group the same size? Would the findings be the same?
I am always leary of these studies, or any study actually because it has been proven over and over again that they are easily manipulated to garner the result someone is looking for.
The study aside, you were fortunate enough to get on hormones at 14, and this 35-40 years ago. Your circle of friends at that time was influenced by those you encountered in your life. Many were like you because you were a part of that group that were able to participate in hormone therapy. That was not the case for most transsexuals. For me, at 14, I thought I was the only kid in the world like this, and that made me think I was a freak. I never met another transsexual person until I started transition at 27, and then they were far and few between. As for getting on hormones in the early 70's .. well most doctors in the UK where I grew up would have thrown you in the looney bin.
Then there are the social issues. Growing up, I never knew of any kid at my school, or even in the neighbourhood that was gay, transsexual or out in any way at all. Sure there would have been, but society back then made them keep a very low profile. Nobody was going to date the sissy kid, even if there was one, because that would have brought on some serious beatings.
What I am saying is, and its not an attack, your experiences are no more valid than anyone else's experiences because socially speaking you were exposed to a different set of rules, and circulated amongst a different friend set than most of us were. In the same way, if there were gay only schools for instance, the students would by that very nature have different outcomes than those of us that were not members of those schools. Does that make them true homosexuals? Society still rules, and back then, parents ruled, and for the very large majority, getting on hormones at 14 just wasn't going to happen unless you had parents that were willing and financially able to pay for you to see specialists. Wasn't going to happen in my neighborhood, but as the saying goes, ... your result may vary.
First the study done in the Netherlands was on patients the clinic itself treated. These are doctors and medical experts in this field and to the best of my knowledge did not manipulate data as you hint at. Everyone was a patient at the facility.
Everyone Benjamin talked about was a patient. I understand how difficult it was in Britain in the 50s, 60s, and early 70's. If there is a flaw in the study it is grouping everyone from 18-65 in the same group. I personally believe the group from 18 to 35 should have been separated but that is just me.
It was actually 51 years ago when I was 14 and to add credence to your comments Dr. Benjamin did not meet another early teenage transsexual until after his book was published so there is no question kids like you in Britain had problems as did a mutual friend of ours. The problems existed in the US also. I had support from several family members in so much as my mom never threatened me with the nuthouse.
There are more kids out today but and this is the big but there are still not a lot of them and the main gist of the post is and was that sexual orientation is a powerful motivator for younger kids since 100% were heterosexual whether MtF or FtM.
I do not know why you bring up gay schools. Why would a young transsexual want to go to a gay school?
Every kid with this feels initially they are the only one in the world with this issue and particularly in my time and in your time. By the way I did not meet another transsexual like me until I was almost 24 just to put you straight on that point. I knew there were others like me but I was not positive because I had never met one.
If not for a Doctor at Children's Hospital in Boston telling my mom she might want to talk with a Dr. Benjamin in NYC back in our time I could have ended up like many others.
Everyone had it rough back in the 50s and 60s. There was little help anywhere. I am sorry for that but things are better for kids today.
Disclaimer:
This is not an attack upon you. It may be hard to read my inflection in my writing, however, what I say is done so with respect for your opinions.
I can fully buy into the clinical analysis and the thought that early intervention and transition are the most advantageous and beneficial to MTF's and FTM's when they can be identified. Especially to adjust well into a normative binary role.
Were I able to transport back 30 or more years and having the understanding of myself and suffering of nonacceptance from certain members of my family and acquaintances as I do today, yes, I would make that trip, and make that early transition. Having said that, and living as I am today, I think this study offers a measure of validation of my point of view which I've offered to you before. I hope that it makes some sense for you to see that there is a legitimately so, disproportional number of "lesbian" relationships created as a result of late transitioners. Though, I still refuse to identify as such and so does my wife. But, we don't need to go there.
No, understanding us will likely never be for you, Elizabeth. However, that non-understand-ability should not negate late transitioners existence as transsexuals. That Dr. Benjamin didn't experience many such as myself, I still feel is more a testament to the social pressures of a intolerant society to the topic than a notion that they (we) simply are so few in number that their experience is not somehow real.
btw, glad to see you posting again!
liz said "I do not know why you bring up gay schools. Why would a young transsexual want to go to a gay school?
You misread, I was not saying transsexuals should go to a gay school. I was making a for instance in reference to young homosexuals that if there should be such a thing as a gay only school, or a transsexual only school for that matter, the students would have a vastly different life experience from those that did not attend such schools.
@ dawn
Not many of us had acceptance from family or aquaintences prior to transition. Surely that has not changed much even today, however, the lack of it did not mean we went off and married a woman(which in itself is not so bad), but then proceeded to raise a family while laboring away begrudgingly in the male role to support them.
For me, I think I would rather have gone to prison than endure that. Yes I did marry 2 women, neither of which did I attempt to have children with. The first, the girlfriend from school which I was somewhat trapped into marrying by family pressure. That didn't last a year before we divorced. The second, a woman I met in California that married me to help me attain a green card. That wasn't too smart either and when it came right down to it she never petitioned for me anyhow.
The bottom line is that I just don't understand late transitioners. I, like liz, just cant understand how a transsexual person can go through life in male mode, doing all the male things, and then retiring as the "new" woman they always wanted to be. To me, it sounds just too convenient, sorta like buying that 59 chevy your parents wouldn't let you have, or you could never afford when you were young.
Elizabeth I agree the numbers tell an interesting tale. But I wonder if not enough credence is given to the impact of Testosterone. My grandmother used to quip that ending all war was simply a matter of castrating all males. Then factor in the very real human need for companionship and perhaps the only way that is possible for older T impacted Transsexuals is lesbian or perhaps Bi. I don't pretend to have all the answers but I suspect if you took a perfectly normal 12 year old female and pumped her full of Testosterone for 5 years both her brain and sexual orientation would be impacted. Even her musculature and other physical characteristics would be affected. Keep it up for a couple of decades and then cease it and you just might end up with a very masculine bio born female lesbian (if those words make any sense paired up together).
Fortunately I doubt any government or organization would conduct such experiments on several hundred unsuspecting young women. But plenty of animal studies indicate Testosterone is a very potent hormone both physically and psychologically.
Which also correlates to a client I encountered in the mid eighties who killed themselves for very similar reasons Liz.
Cassandraspeaks
@Leigh,
With all honesty, I was never in to "doing all the male things". Oh sure, I did my share of hunting, fishing and football watching. But, so do a hell of a lot of women. Though, if by "doing all the male things" you are referring to the more despicable parts where they like to go out and chase skirts while the wifey stays at home with the younguns'; that wasn't me. Never did that. I knew a lot of men that do and did but, I couldn't understand the reasoning for it. I was much more content to stay home after work and help as much as possible to nurture the two children we were blessed with.
This is where things truly get complicated. The kids. They lost a father when I transitioned. Their level of acceptance is measured, at best. I can understand their disappointment and the sickening feeling at living with such a loss and having to explain to someone every time the issue of "what's up with your mom and dad?" pops up. My daughter in particular is tired of having to rehash the issue with people. Consequently that gets projected back to me. It would be a lie if I told you I am okay with it. I'm not. But, even that knowledge and what is implied from not having a relationship any longer with my children would not deter me from being who I am today. Selfish? Hell yeah it's selfish. Though, mid life crisis type selfish? Not at all.
What I see is a parallel between the level of intensity that those who transitioned early in life because they just could not stand being someone they weren't and risking all; the ridicule, the mistreatment and the rest of the backlash that could come with it. The fact that I experienced this urgency at a later stage of life is actually still very similar to the urgency you and others felt. It just happened late in my case that I couldn't stand to not be who I was meant to be. There are of course a lot more unintended consequences as a result. And, it wasn't that I was unhappy with my family, or for that matter most other things about my life. Far from it. I was actually quite content. The powder keg was lit within me and it had a very slow burning fuse in my case. I knew there was an issue all of my life. Being unclear on what it was, is why I manipulated my life to do my best to "fit in", to look and act normal. But, when that powder keg blew it was no different than when you, or Elizabeth, or anyone else who transitioned early and cannot 'get' the reasoning why someone else would transition late; I had no other choice. It was do it or don't live. Period.
I realize you, Elizabeth and many others will not understand. Will never understand. That doesn't matter really. I transitioned late and that's all there is to it. I will live out the remaining days of my life in dignity and earning respect for who I am; with my wife still by my side.
@ Elizabeth. You seem to have misinterpreted my point. When I interact with you I get the impression you are spoiling for a fight. My point (however poorly I stated it) was simply that Testosterone is a powerful hormone and its effects not very well understood. Count yourself lucky that you have very little experience with it but don't discount its effects.
Now if you really want a cat fight over what is and what isn't bullshit go find somebody else. You lost my vote long ago but I still believe we can be civil in discourse about topics we both have an interest in.
@Dawn; the problem with those like you is that your claims to any legitimacy other than transvestism at is's most advanced and extreme is so tenuous you will read into almost any study or statement surrounding the issue of transsexuality justification of your paradigm. I really cannot understand why you all seem to require a justification outside of transvestism? Your life choices and desires as well as life narrative show you to be well outside accepted parameters as applied to genuine transsexualism. Dawm I don't care that you taken cross dressing to an extreme good luck. But you don't have the narrative of a transsexual. Period and I don't care what stories you make up from here. Just be what you are and deal with it.
Cassandraspeaks
@Cassandra,
It's a good thing you weren't the therapist I went to for three years. I likely wouldn't be alive today if that were the case. So, STFHU! I didn't ask for your analysis and I reject your deluded sense of self-righteous egotistical imperialism.
I know what and who I am. You don't know SHIT about what I have gone through. You don't know SHIT about anything concerning me. Doing your little virtual voodoo therapeutic witchcraft analysis is laughable. I don't NEED the "narrative of a transsexual". I know that I have lived with that condition for 53 years now! I will live with being a transsexual for the rest of my life. AND, I will enjoy the fact that now I can be comfortable in my own skin, not just my life.
Stories made up? Nothing made up here. I tell you what. I'll send you my address. You come see me and my life and THEN tell me I make up stories. I'll run you around to every person I know in this town I live in (and some of them don't even like me - imagine that), you can talk to each and every one of them to see if anything I have offered here is a story I've made up. I'll take you to our local Kiwanis meeting let you see just how it is that I can interact with everyone there as a normal woman (that I am), and you can personally experience the level of acceptance they have so generously given to me. Ohh, but I suppose you'll consider that to just show how they are accommodating me to satisfy my supposed 'twisted sexual deviance'. NOT! You can inspect my closets and look for any strap-ons (btw, you can keep them if you can find them). There aren't any and never were! I'll drive you up to my brothers house and you can have a querying session with him to see what he thinks about me and all of this. You can even talk with my mother. Ask her whether or not she thinks I am a woman. Talk with my kids, my son-in-law, talk with whom ever in the hell you wish to. I'll let you look at my medical records. I'll sign a waiver and you can talk with my doctors. You're going to find out that I am real. My life was and is real and most of all, I never make up stories about anything.
So, Cassandra. Take your form of repairative therapy approach and stick it in your orifice of choice where there is no light of day to shine!
Do you think you struck a nerve? Damned right! I don't look for justification, I don't "read narratives", I don't ask for your approval. And I sure as hell don't need your approval! Whether or not I ”fit” what ever phsycobable BS worksheet you make your tick marks on to evaluate a person as to whether they are, or are not transsexual; well, tear it up Baby! It ain't gonna' fit the profile in my case! But, I'll be damned if I will allow you to tell me who or what I am when I know perfectly well that I am transsexual. I am disgustingly tired of having to defend myself against the Holier Than Thou transsexuals that you represent. So, move over bitch! I am in this club to stay!
See there you go, with a typical response I'd expect from any male. Don't like the message shoot the messenger. I don't deal in psychobabble or witchcraft I deal in facts, the facts you have throughout every one of your overly lengthy, wordy and self justificating posts of rambling horseshit placed in front of all and sundry at every opportunity. So Dawn don't expect me to run off crying because you beat your male chest and bellowed at me. Your move over bitch attitude stinks of testosterone. I have an opinion to which I am entitled and will stick to unless I see evidence to change it. So far I see none. So I stay put mister. Your "Bully Boy" tacticts don't work with me.
Cassandraspeaks
Sorry Cassandra, I don't have hardly any measurable testosterone. I dare say, I have a hell of a lot less than you do! So, try again. And, I'm not the bully here. You are. You're the same bully that I was run off of play grounds as a kid because of superiority complexes that you feel you have to show everyone just how high and mighty you are. Well, get over yourself. I quit letting bullies run me off when I transitioned. In no way was I suggesting that you go cry a river in a corner and leave here (though, if it helps you to feel better, go ahead). The move over bitch remark was not a male trait. It's sisterly expression.
Go ahead and believe all you wish to about me. I reserve my own judgement of you! But, your thoughts and sick insidious remarks will not alter one simple fact............I am every bit as much a woman as YOU! Actually better!
Feel what ever way you wish to, Cassandra. If you think your hurting me with your insults, think again. Obviously I must have more comfort and confidence in my own life than you in yours. It's really the only thing I can see for being a reason of your attacks upon me. So, get it over with. Enjoy yourself in flinging more insults. But, it won't change a thing. I'll still be the woman I am and you, well, you'll still be you. Miserable.
This will be the very last time I ever relay a response to anything with your name upon it.
Suits me fine Mister
I think what is being missed here, (intentionally, perhaps), is the simple, incontrovertable conclusion that those Transsexuals who WERE treated early, rather than later adjusted much, much better than those who sought treatment later in life, after perhaps living decades in a male role, fathering children etc.
Anne
http://anna-es-asi.blogspot.com/
I find little wonder thatthese individuals might have "problems" "transitoning".
I would guess that those who identify as late transitioning transexuals are much more common in these times than 100 years ago. Simply put, their is a generation who were born at a time when transition was not a possiblity or so difficult to access that they never had the chance to transition early. The world has changed dramatically in the last 50 years. Personally I grew up in a small town, no internet of course, no cell phones, no computers, no library. Young people now have the advantage of all these things and so their ability to transition young is infinetly better. In my time, in the place I was raised being gay was a death sentence plain and simple and I know of two young men this happened to. Imagine what might have happened to a young transexual. I would guess that 50 years from now late transitioning transexuals will be a rarity as things have changed so much and so much for the better.
Anne,
I think you are essentially correct. Though in my own instance the problems transitioning were and to some degree still are that of social stigma, along with familial disbelief and ostracisation. Other than that and the ill-treatment from a large portion of the early transitioning transsexual population, I haven't really had it so bad. Very few problems, really.
Those who are fortunate to make that early transition and do so in a safe environment will most certainly stand the best opportunity to move forward in a life of confidence and stealth. That they will in all likelihood be hetero-normative is undoubtedly a qualifying factor in their success.
Anonymous,
Like you I too grew up in a small town. A red-neck hot spot of the northwest U.S (I actually still live in that same town). And, like you there was no internet very little television (two channels). It use to be an ultra-conservative enclave for the John Birchers of this Country. I know exactly how your feelings of peril came into play. I can recall vividly how two individuals were mistreated in high school because they were suspected of being gay. One of whom ended up committing suicide because he had no where that he felt he could reach out to for help.
I think you made a VERY salient point in that in the future we will see a dramatic reduction in the numbers of "Late Transitioning Transsexuals". At least then, the extraordinary display of prejudice being displayed by some within the transsexual "community" won't have us LTTs to kick around any longer. However, also by then most of these disbelieving folk (if not all) will be but a footnote in transsexual history. Just the same as the those more vocal fundamentalist religious nut-jobs that are out there everyday to dissuade from our validity and public acceptance, along with their desire to keep us from adequate access to effective treatment in a respectful medical setting.
The point that always gets missed is that back in 1984 the belief was that now that treatment was readily available transition would begin younger and younger. 10 years on the average age of transition became older not younger. As the years have rolled by and the criteria for diagnosis of transsexual has become less defined the average age has again risen. Today in 2011 if looking around the internet is anything to go by the average age has moved to late 50's.
The reason is the continual dilution of the definition of precisely what transsexuality is to the point that it now includes transvestites who have become "addicted". To the point that along with the availability of SRS and other surgeries like FFS anyone with money can get the works or "manager special" from the likes of Doug Ousterhout and Toby Meltzer as well as Suporn in Thailand and hey presto! Instant woman. Subsequently using political correctness as an additional tool society is forced to indulge their fantasy. I have seen no evidence to support any theory that the age of transition will reduce and the social stigma attached to transition and resulting ostracision has essentially not changed. What has changed is the perception of what a transsexual is in reality and it is not to the benefit of transsexuals in general.
One of the key indicators mentioned in this Dutch study which appears to have escaped others who have commented here, is the prevelance of heterosexuality among those who do indeed transition early. Relate that too the large number of "lesbianism" within older transitioning groups and you have a statistical puzzle that is yet to be satisfactorily explained.
The facts as I see them run like this; the statistics begin to make sense when the Criteria applied by researchers like Cohen Kettenis, Harry Benjamin, Marcus Hirschfeld Georges Burou etc are applied and the criteria or paradigm devised by John Money ignored.
When you read the internet blogs on this issue and any subsequent comments they move inevitably towards self justification and providing the story fits and supports the dogma everyone else cheers them on. Any dissent is greeted with accusations and insults. Invitations for study from researchers who may have a genuine interest and concern is flooded with applications from the hordes of late transitioning TG while the genuine transsexual who in almost every case wishes to become their target sex and simply get on with life never again looking back and certainly have no desire to engage in debates with old men who like to wear dresses.
I'm aware that the accusation is likely to get thrown at me "What am I doing involved in these debates if I claim to be genuine transsexual?" Well for pretty much the same reason Anne is involved. I thought that by sharing my story with those beginning their life changing journey's I may perhaps help ease the pain it causes. I began sharing my life experience on line in 2002 and ever since have been called pretty much every name you could think of. This experience has taught me to speak directly and with candour. Those standing on shaky ground seem to have a problem with that and frankly it's ceased to concern me. The fact is there are more transsexuals in the world than most people think there are, however, there are far fewer than a lot of transsexuals thimk there are.
Cassandraspeaks
@Elizabeth
One of my closest friends transitioned aged 15. She's bisexual - her first experiences were with men. She's one of the most feminine women I've ever met.
One of the factors in her choice of experiences was the desire to fit in and avoid the stigma of being seen as lesbian, and the oft-associated perception of a lack of femininity.
I guess she's just a statistical fluke in the face of the statistics you've quoted. right?
@Last Anonymous
Not at all. Statistically we should match normal girls so the should be a certain percentage of lesbian. I assume you have read little of what I have written because the only issue I have with the lesbian percentage is the high nunbers for late transitioners.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
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